Neglected masterworks

[Panjandrum]

It sounds like there is as much Austin as Ives in the former's completion.

I share that feeling. I guess it shouldn't be too much of a surprise given the state in which Ives' sketches were left, and his instructions (pleas) for others to complete it. However, it is still a fascinating and deeply moving document which gives us an insight into where Ives was going. Strange foretastes (or should that be afters) of Xenakis' Pleiades in some of the percussion.

[rauschwerk]

I'll add Ives' Universe symphony, in whichever completion you choose, although the Austin at 38 minutes is more approachable than the Reinhard at double the length.

I really cannot see how an unfinished piece can be regarded as a masterpiece!

[Panjandrum]

I really cannot see how an unfinished piece can be regarded as a masterpiece!

Schubert 8?
Bruckner 9?
Mahler 10?
Lulu?
Turandot?
Poppea?
Mozart's Requiem (comp.Sussmayr)?
Elgar 3?

Care to rethink that POV Rausch?

[rauschwerk]

Schubert 8?
Bruckner 9?
Mahler 10?
Lulu?
Turandot?
Poppea?
Mozart's Requiem (comp.Sussmayr)?
Elgar 3?

Care to rethink that POV Rausch?

All right, then. I did phrase my post rather badly.

We can happily listen to Schubert 8 and Bruckner 9 as their composers left them. Other works left truncated (Lulu, Turandot) can be regarded as masterworks because we know exactly what the composer completed. In the case of the Mozart, we know what he wrote from the surviving autograph scores, treat those bits as masterly and put up with the rest. Works completed entirely or largely from sketches (Mahler 10, Elgar 3, Ives Universe symphony) are much more problematic. If they be masterpieces, is that due to the composer or the completer?

[Panjandrum]

Works completed entirely or largely from sketches (Mahler 10, Elgar 3, Ives Universe symphony) are much more problematic. If they be masterpieces, is that due to the composer or the completer?

Interesting point Rauschy. I wonder why it is only in the classical world that we are seemingly so wedded to the concept of the composer working independently of others? One only has to think of jazz or rock to realise that it is not one shared by other genres.

FWIW, my own view is that if the finished result satisfies the criteria of "masterpiece" or near-masterpiece (whatever that is), why worry about whose inspiration is behind it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

FWIW, my own view is that if the finished result satisfies the criteria of "masterpiece" ... why worry about whose inspiration is behind it.

My PoV, too, Panjan. (Some lovely wasted hours naval-gazing about the aesthetics of creativity and authorship to be had thereby, though!)

[Panjandrum]

My PoV, too, Panjan. (Some lovely wasted hours naval-gazing about the aesthetics of creativity and authorship to be had thereby, though!)

Indeed! And we haven't even got on to Delius and Fenby.

[cloughie]

Smetana Ma Vlast (1,3,5,6)

[mathias broucek]

It seems people really do care about who's behind it rather than the quality or otherwise of the music

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milli_Vanilli

[vinteuil]

Some lovely wasted hours naval-gazing ....

... with a telescope, I presume?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... with a telescope, I presume?

Or, with the correct spelling, in my case, a periscope!

[EdgeleyRob]

In fact, there's quite a bit of Dyson that should be heard more often - the Concerto da Chiesa, for instance.

And his Symphony in G.

[B]George Dyson: Violin Concerto
Premiered at the Proms during the Second World War, this is a gorgeous work, the equal of many more famous VC's and I can't understand it's neglect. It would go down very well at the Proms.

I couldn't agree more!

There are so may neglected masterpieces,what is a masterpiece anyway?.
Interesting to note how much British music is quoted on this thread.

A couple I would add are :

Parry 5th Symphony.
Lloyd Symphonic Mass.

[Barbirollians]

Dohnanyi's Konzertstuck for Cello and Orchestra.

I would second Parry's symphony No 5 but heavens Stanford's Irish Symphony sounds like a tapestry woven by a musical magpie .

[Pabmusic]

Dohnanyi's Konzertstuck for Cello and Orchestra.

I would second Parry's symphony No 5 but heavens Stanford's Irish Symphony sounds like a tapestry woven by a musical magpie .

I enjoy Parry's 3rd even more than his 5th. It was his best known symphony in his lifetime - just happy music.

[Pabmusic]

Here's an interesting composer: Dittersdorf. He wrote perhaps 120 symphonies (and much more besides) though most are lost, but what remains are often gems. Best-known, I suppose, are the six symphonies on the Metamorphosis of Ovid, which all have almost graphic stories. Try Der Sturz Phaëtons, if you don't know them. There's good tunes, often unexpected structures (opening with the slow movement, closing with a minuet, etc), and some lovely woodwind writing.

His name was Carl Ditters, but when he was enobled he chose the title 'von Dittersdorf' - rather as if Roy Hudd became Lord Hudd of Huddersfield. I just love that.