Agh - Downloads!

[Dave2002]

I wonder if the available CD catalogue is being eroded. I spotted what I thought might be a very good recording of Respighi played by the Oregon SO conducted by James DePreist. In this case I really do refer to the recording, rather than the performances, though I feel sure that these are more than adequate. When challenged recently to find high quality recordings with minimal compression I went looking for this - only to find that what pops up most naturally is an MP3 download version.

Recordings such as this one, which I feel are high quality, deserve more than MP3. I wouldn't insist on CDs if the companies would issue high resolution downloads instead - if they really do want to go that way, but substituting an MP3 for a decent CD does not seem like progress, even though many companies might feel that this is the commercially viable for them to go.

In the case of Delos DE 3287 I did track down a copy at CD Universe. See http://www.zimbio.com/Black+Classica...versions+three for more information.

Does anyone really care about sound quality? I'd generally go for a very good performance over sound quality, but with many recordings, even some quite old ones, it should be possible to have both - if only the companies would oblige and let us. I'm convinced that even some analogue recordings from the 1960s and 70s actually have (or at least had - subject to master tape deterioration) better sound quality than many CD transfers currently offer, and compressing these onto MP3s is not going to improve things at all. Commercial expediency seems to be the dominant factor here, rather than a wish to provide high quality products.

[jayne lee wilson]

Of course the range is restricted but both Pristine Audio and HDTT offer 16 or 24-bit transfers of great, early analogue mono and stereo recordings drawn from vinyl or Open Reel. Whilst Pristine are technically and commercially spotless, extremely helpful and communicative, and have a wealth of fascinating info on their help pages about all this, one has to say that HDTT have been subject to some doubts about one or two of their transfers - to wit, whether they do actually extend beyond CD resolution etc. - they have, it should be said, defended themselves vigorously (see website); but they haven't responded well to my (rare) requests for problems with one or two files - I had to find a fix - a workaround - myself. One has to say that despite a warts-and-all approach (which even leaves traces of wow and flutter on the file occasionally!), usually, their product does sound very good - at its best quite special. A recent transfer of Ansermet's Honegger 4 from LP is a perfect example - just gorgeous, but perhaps a bit too summery in feel for the present weather!

It's not surprising that most hi-res files offered are native, recent 24/96 recordings. The odd mistake apart, where upsampled files are sold as true 24/96, the companies like Da Capo, Chandos and BIS can be sure of what they are selling that way, and many older recording may not have the high-frequency content to justify a 24/48 or 24/96 transfer anyway. HIFI NEWS has regular hi-res download reviews each month which print graphic analyses of a selection of such files.

[rauschwerk]

Quit a few companies now offer lossless formats, eg Hyperion, Chandos (this includes all the labels on their site), Universal. Indeed , the very recording you mention is also available from http://www.theclassicalshop.net in several lossless formats.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Also, downloads involve far more inconvenience for the purchaser. With a CD, you have the finished product and can play in your hi-fi, your DVD/Blu Ray player, in your car, personal CD player, ghetto blaster, computer. With a download, you need some where to store it and back it up. If you want it on CD, you need to buy blank CDs and possibly make your own labels. I've had to do all this to buy certain recordings, but it would not be my first choice.

[cloughie]

I wonder if the available CD catalogue is being eroded.........
I'm convinced that even some analogue recordings from the 1960s and 70s actually have (or at least had - subject to master tape deterioration) better sound quality than many CD transfers currently offer, and compressing these onto MP3s is not going to improve things at all. Commercial expediency seems to be the dominant factor here, rather than a wish to provide high quality products.

I think you are absolutely right in both these. The demise of the record store has accelerated this, but also I think the days of long availability of most issues have gone. At risk of being labelled a backwoodsman many of the best recordings were made ever, there seemed to be a care and understanding by engineers and producers of the time that no longer exists.

[Ferretfancy]

I think you are absolutely right in both these. The demise of the record store has accelerated this, but also I think the days of long availability of most issues have gone. At risk of being labelled a backwoodsman many of the best recordings were made ever, there seemed to be a care and understanding by engineers and producers of the time that no longer exists.

I've just taken delivery of the Mercury bumper box, partly to fill gaps in my collection of these recordings from the late 1950s and early 60s. Of course, they are variable in quality, but the best of them are superb, and they were all the product of a basic philosophy of recording, namely to produce fine performances and sound using simple studio techniques and the minimum of intervention.
Naturally, some allowances have to be made, given the vintage, but the results are still very enjoyable.

Compare this with today's sophisticated technology. Making recordings of large scale works is very costly, and tight schedules on session time mean that engineers seldom have the luxury of choosing ideal locations, let alone the chance to seek out the best microphone positions to achieve the best results, and so they almost invariably opt for multi-miking, multi-tracking and subsequent mix down. This must reduce the opportunities for the musicians themselves to express an opinion until they are able to hear the finished product. In addition, it's becoming quite rare to hear the sound of an orchestra playing in a convincing acoustic and good directional information instead we get an artificial soundstage, often with added reverb, and false dynamics.

Attending performances at the RFH and the Barbican which were being recorded for orchestra labels, I've sometimes been able to count as many as 40 microphones, and the final products from these difficult locations are still only of average quality.

The highly praised Petrenko performances from Liverpool are a case in point. They are certainly exciting, but a surprisingly large amount of detail gets lost, even though the recordings pack quite a punch.
Compare his recording of Shostakovich 8 with Haitink's, made by Decca in the Concertgebouw. To my mind, taken just as a recording, the latter is far more impressive, and you can really hear differentiation within the orchestra when you should be able to do so.

Finally, it's interesting that modern engineers seem to be able to use a simple approach in smaller scale works and instrumental music, it's the large scale stuff which suffers most from today's methods.

[Parry1912]

Of course the range is restricted but both Pristine Audio and HDTT offer 16 or 24-bit transfers ... drawn from vinyl

I bought my first CD player in 1985 in order to get away from vinyl! I think I'll stick with CDs/SACDs a bit longer yet otherwise I'll feel I'm going backwards.

[jayne lee wilson]

They are transferred from vinyl but they don't usually have its disadvantages! Pristine's "XR" method of restoration often produces remarkable results, as does their "Ambient Stereo" approach, and versions of the technique are widely used now - do go and read about it on the Pristine website, it's fascinating, and Andrew Rose's love and knowledge of classic recordings shines out of everything he does.

I bought my first CD player in 1985 in order to get away from vinyl! I think I'll stick with CDs/SACDs a bit longer yet otherwise I'll feel I'm going backwards.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, this is often depressingly true of those once called the "major labels", (Rattle's Berlin CDs wouldn't win many engineering awards...) but you can still find excellent orchestral sound on smaller, more dedicated ventures like CPO, Da Capo, or BIS (not so small now...)

I think you are absolutely right in both these. The demise of the record store has accelerated this, but also I think the days of long availability of most issues have gone. At risk of being labelled a backwoodsman many of the best recordings were made ever, there seemed to be a care and understanding by engineers and producers of the time that no longer exists.

[HighlandDougie]

The new Hyperion Britten disc (Anthony Marwood, Lawrence Power et al) may only be 2-channel but the recording is very fine. It puts most other recent concerto recordings I've heard (the Hungaroton Bartok 2nd Violin Concerto to name but one) pretty much in the shade. Very fine performances as well.

[Dave2002]

The highly praised Petrenko performances from Liverpool are a case in point. They are certainly exciting, but a surprisingly large amount of detail gets lost, even though the recordings pack quite a punch.
Compare his recording of Shostakovich 8 with Haitink's, made by Decca in the Concertgebouw. To my mind, taken just as a recording, the latter is far more impressive, and you can really hear differentiation within the orchestra when you should be able to do so.

That may be so. Unfortunately, good though Petrenko's performances are supposed to be I find that as soon as I switch back to Haitink that my enjoyment rises. You may be right about the sound quality, but Haitink seems to do better in the performance stakes too. Compare Symphony 10. Haitink's rendition of the second movement flows and pushes on in ways that few others can match. I heard him do this 5 or so years ago at the Barbican - not sure which orchestra as he conducted several around that time, including the VPO, Concertgebouw and one or two of the London orchestras. We wondered beforehand whether his performance would have the speed and drive of some others we had heard around that time. After all .....

In the end Haitink's performance had more of just about everything good than others we had heard.

[Dave2002]

Quit a few companies now offer lossless formats, eg Hyperion, Chandos (this includes all the labels on their site), Universal. Indeed , the very recording you mention is also available from http://www.theclassicalshop.net in several lossless formats.

Thanks for the details of that download site. It would have worked out cheaper than the CD which I hope is now winging its way to me.

There are good and bad things about downloads, and some downloads are acceptable and are very good bargains compared with CDs. However, generally the sound quality is going to be better from CDs, SACDs and various DVDs.
Where downloads are in lossless formats, and higher resolution than CDs it is certainly possible for downloads to provide superior sound. What i was deploring was the withdrawal of CDs from the market place with major sellers only offering MP3, and particularly when the original recording is known or thought to be of high quality.

[rauschwerk]

What i was deploring was the withdrawal of CDs from the market place with major sellers only offering MP3...

I join you in deploring that, though I am encouraged to think that lossless will soon be universally available, now that download times are not a deterrent for the majority.