Oh, please, give me strength...

[Flosshilde]

I suppose we have to keep in focus that most of humanity are cultural philistines..... (well, my spelling probably is!)

Philly Stein - now there's a possibility for a user name

Why are Philistines a by-word for ignorance & a lack of 'culture'? Was it simply Israelite propaganda? Wikipedia says that "The Philistines were ... renowned for both their production and consumption of alcoholic beverages. Numerous finds have exposed a well-managed spirits industry, from breweries and wineries to retail outlets that advertised beer, wine, and strong drink. Among the most numerous artifacts unearthed from Philistine ruins are beer mugs and wine craters (large drinking bowls). The story of Samson's wedding feast alludes to the Philistine practice of engaging in week-long drinking parties" Perhaps that's why the British feel such an afinity for them

[Serial_Apologist]

well strength to your elbow pastoralguy .....

and yep you will need a very long handled spooon to

................................................................................................. .....

sup with the devil of popular commerce eh ......

Phew!

[vinteuil]

Philly Stein - now there's a possibility for a user name

Why are Philistines a by-word for ignorance & a lack of 'culture'? Was it simply Israelite propaganda? Wikipedia says that "The Philistines were ... renowned for both their production and consumption of alcoholic beverages. Numerous finds have exposed a well-managed spirits industry, from breweries and wineries to retail outlets that advertised beer, wine, and strong drink. Among the most numerous artifacts unearthed from Philistine ruins are beer mugs and wine craters (large drinking bowls). The story of Samson's wedding feast alludes to the Philistine practice of engaging in week-long drinking parties" Perhaps that's why the British feel such an afinity for them

the modern source for the current use of this word is Matthew Arnold, especially in his Culture and Anarchy [1867/68]. From wiki:

"Matthew Arnold was the champion of Victorian 'high culture' countering the forces of the Philistines. In his Essays in Criticism (1865) he pointed out (in his essay on the German poet Heinrich Heine) that "'Philistine' must have originally meant, in the mind of those who invented the nickname, a strong, dogged, unenlightened opponent of the children of the light." In fact German students applied it to the long-suffering townspeople of university towns. In another context Arnold wrote, 'The people who believe most that our greatness and welfare are proved by our being very rich... are just the very people whom we call the Philistines.' From his example, 'Philistine' passed into the enlightened liberal's armament of cultural scorn."

In Culture and Anarchy he (chapter 3) distinguishes between the Barbarians, the Philistines, and the Populace.
The Barbarians are the thick toffs; the Philistines the middle class "particularly stiff-necked and resistant to light and its children ... who do not pursue sweetness and light... a dismal and illiberal life... ", and the Populace, the proles "raw and half-developed, ... half hidden amidst its poverty and squalor".
But he offers hope - "in every one of us, whether we be properly Barbarians, Philistines, or Populace, there exists, sometimes only in germ and potentially, sometimes more or less developed, the same tendencies and passions which have made our fellow-citizens what they are. This consideration is very important, because it has great influence in begetting that spirit of indulgence which is a necessary part of sweetness... "
The whole Essay is well worth reading...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Vinty.

Presumably, then, Schumann (with his Davidsbunder marching against the Philistines) got the idea from Heine?

[french frank]

I suppose we also might keep in focus that most of humanity don't have the leisure to be anything else: what with attempting to subsist and that sort of thing. http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/income.php

Yes, I think it clouds the issue to include the whole of humanity. Philistinism surely implies the derision of certain art forms which are seen as belonging to a privileged minority, and their consequent rejection in favour of more popular commercial/materialistic culture. Most of humanity is not remotely acquainted (for obvious reasons) with the art forms in question.

[John Skelton]

Yes, I think it clouds the issue to include the whole of humanity. Philistinism surely implies the derision of certain art forms which are seen as belonging to a privileged minority, and their consequent rejection in favour of more popular commercial/materialistic culture. Most of humanity is not remotely acquainted (for obvious reasons) with the art forms in question.

Fairy Nuff . I don't think it makes much sense to talk of "most of humanity" being "philistine" (unlike "us"), though. People aren't a homogeneous lump, they get up to all sorts of surprising things, and certainly not all popular culture is rubbish (or even all that widely popular or commercially successful). Not all 'high culture' is that wonderful (the revival of dull erm philistine schools of painting, for instance). "Certain art forms" aren't untouched by vulgar considerations of commerce or materialism, either (the revival of dull etc., much 'literary' fiction of the kind that gets made into the 'better sort of film' and reviewed in newspaper 'Culture Supplements' and so on).

[Karafan]

But we are infinitely worse - from their side of the cultural abyss, we are ... "elitists" (a term which means that we understand the meaning of both words) .

But FF, Karajan's response to this charge was always "I am not an elitist, I am a super-elitist!", so perhaps the challenge does need meeting headon....

[eighthobstruction]

In this case we say "Stay in Occupied Philistinia"....

[John Skelton]

Karajan - now there was someone who had no time for "commercial/materialistic culture."

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/5731359067_2bdc2f869c.jpg

[aeolium]

Philistinism surely implies the derision of certain art forms which are seen as belonging to a privileged minority, and their consequent rejection in favour of more popular commercial/materialistic culture.

Philistinism in the sense of active hostility to those art forms is probably fairly limited, perhaps most common in journalism and broadcasting. I would think that for most of those who are just interested in various forms of popular culture, the 'higher' art forms simply don't appear on the radar at all and therefore don't attract anything other than indifference. Those who go on about elitists and elitism in culture are also, I suggest, mainly to be found in the media and also among arts professionals and critics who want to make 'high' art more accessible - people like Charles Hazlewood or, dare I say, Roger Wright.

At least as common as that kind of philistinism is the attitude that derides all forms of popular culture, and those who enjoy them - even though the latter are generally less likely to have enjoyed the educational advantages of the 'high-cultured' and are more likely to be economically disadvantaged compared with the 'high-cultured', and even though the forms of popular culture they enjoy are harmless. Perhaps a new word should be coined for this kind of attitude - demophobic? (I was never that good at Latin, and didn't do Greek)

[french frank]

and certainly not all popular culture is rubbish (or even all that widely popular or commercially successful).

Yes, but as I would understand 'philistinism', it's not about 'liking popular culture' (quotes indicate shorthand ); it's the inability to appreciate the other stuff and routinely deriding it, not least because 'a privileged few' appreciate it and it therefore becomes 'their' culture, not my/our culture.

Not all 'high culture' is that wonderful (the revival of dull erm philistine schools of painting, for instance). "Certain art forms" aren't untouched by vulgar considerations of commerce or materialism, either (the revival of dull etc., much 'literary' fiction of the kind that gets made into the 'better sort of film' and reviewed in newspaper 'Culture Supplements' and so on).

And one way round this difficult critical question, of course, is to take the view that there is no difference at all of any artistic significance between the two undefined globs, inaccurately labelled 'high culture' and 'popular culture'.



Add: Agree with aeolium whose post I hadn't seen. At least, now I reread it, I may be saying something different. But I might agree with aeolium more than with me when I think about it. I'll think about it.

[John Skelton]

And one way round this difficult critical question, of course, is to take the view that there is no difference at all of any artistic significance between the two undefined globs, inaccurately labelled 'high culture' and 'popular culture'.

There isn't any difference in artistic significance between something which has been placed within the undefined glob-set 'high culture' and something placed within the ugs 'popular culture.' IMV, that is. That isn't a 'relativist' view: on the contrary, it's a view which says piece of popular music or writing a is better than piece of high culture music or writing b. Or: the greatness of Beethoven's op. 127 quartet has nothing to do with it being 'high culture' and everything to do with its content. (Although, having said which: I do think the argument which says that works like Beethoven's op. 127 quartet acquire a certain social prestige and get listened to and discussed / analysed in certain ways because they are ideologically given as 'high culture' is an important one. I just don't think it says anything like everything there is to say about op. 127).

Otherwise, what aeolium said.

[pastoralguy]

Actually, I shouldn't have complained about my 'lot'. I do enjoy my job and get a real laugh with both patients and collegues. I suppose I just wish I was a little better off than I am. But yes, I'm not living in a mud hut and I at least have a reasonably well paid job. (As well as a wonderful interest!!!)

[jayne lee wilson]

In hospital for several weeks, twice, after pretty major surgery in 2008, a student nurse came round with a questionnaire for me...

"What's the worst thing about being in hospital?"
"Confinement, definitely!"

"What's the best thing?"
"The Nurses, of course!"

Pastoralguy - need I say more?

I guess many of us want more money & security than we've got, but I really don't envy the famous for the distorted view of the world and their own role within it that they seem to inherit from the attention paid to them in the media.

Actually, I shouldn't have complained about my 'lot'. I do enjoy my job and get a real laugh with both patients and collegues. I suppose I just wish I was a little better off than I am. But yes, I'm not living in a mud hut and I at least have a reasonably well paid job. (As well as a wonderful interest!!!)

[Karafan]

Karajan - now there was someone who had no time for "commercial/materialistic culture."

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/5731359067_2bdc2f869c.jpg

Ha! Great picture, John - he and Eliette look so patrician!

K.