Radio 3 announcements

[Mark Sealey]

Or even Arvo P***?

[french frank]

Frenchie, before this gets even more bogged down, may I draw your attention to the initial message in this thread. It was a negative criticism of a announcer for what was perceived by Stanford's Legacy to be an incorrect pronunciation of Jean Françaix's name. I challenged that criticism on the basis that pronouncing it as the composer himself preferred was no mispronunciation.

Correct, Bryn.

My opinion is that you are both correct in re the pronunciation. You are both incorrect in suggesting that there is a correct pronunciation, because it depends. But you were correct in disputing the initial post. In my opinion.

[But I have no difficulty in holding opposing views at the same time. Whatever you say, I will disagree. Or agree. Depending on whether it is Tuesday or Friday. .]

Edit: I have had an auto generated reply as they have probably gone home. I rely solely on the goodwill of the PU and their interest in the job that they do. Damn - and it's Friday.

[Uncle Monty]

To the extent I understand that, I think it's right

In most languages, place- and family-names are the most resistant words to orthodox orthography, let alone pronunciation. A man who calls himself Fanshawe can hardly complain of "incorrect" pronunciation by people reasonably reading it as Featherstonehaugh.

This is not quite the same as e.g. the awful attempts at pronouncing German words on R4 the other week, which sounded to me like failure to observe any proper vowel sounds or normal stresses.

Whatever Francaix called himself, I bet most French people would say it "Francais", and they wouldn't be wrong, would they?

[MickyD]

Well, I'm not sure about that Uncle Monty - there is a bank in my town called "Chaix" and every French person I know pronounces it "chex". But then French, like English, is riddled with confusing exceptions!

[french frank]

Well, I'm not sure about that Uncle Monty - there is a bank in my town called "Chaix" and every French person I know pronounces it "chex". But then French, like English, is riddled with confusing exceptions!

If you're Bristol, born and bred, you talk about the Cabbo Tower and Cabbo Circus, as if the name Cabot was French. He was an Italian, Giovanni Caboto, so incomers have a case when they say Cabbott.

As for Chaix - interesting. The only thing I've found in the French Wikipedia is on the name/toponym Chaix (including the founder of the bank), where there is a direction 'Pour les articles homophones, voir Chai, Chay, Chet et Chey'.

[MickyD]

French frank, it could be that the people I know are in Provence - they have a tendency to pronounce the ends of words, so I'd be inclined to believe your Wikipedia entry as more accurate!

[Norfolk Born]

Didn't I read somewhere that they're going to do away with cheques (no, NOT Czechs)....?
Re. Message # 13: About 20 minutes into his second programme, I stopped worrying about Al Murray's amazingly inconsistent German pronunciation, and limited myself to a scarcely perceptible sigh when he described Goethe's 'Faust' as a novel. It was a 2-part play when I tried, unavailingly, to make sense of it at university back in the 1960s. Julia Bradbury ususally manages to produce something close to the correct pronuncuation in her 'Wanderlust' programmes.
These things matter, at least to those of us who earn an honest crust through the correct use of modern European languages.
"Es irrt der Mensch, solang er strebt"

[french frank]

French frank, it could be that the people I know are in Provence - they have a tendency to pronounce the ends of words, so I'd be inclined to believe your Wikipedia entry as more accurate!

Yes, they even pronounce the 'g' on the end of Perpignan, don't they?

[french frank]

Well, contrary to expectations, the gen.pub. has had a very full response from the BBC's Pronunciation Unit on (Jean) Françaix. I've just noticed that the email has the BBC's usual thing about it being confidential &c. but given my reason for asking was made clear at the time:

"Our notes about this pronunciation state that one of Jean Françaix's childhood friends told a BBC radio announcer that she had never heard anything but fraa(ng)-SAY (-aa(ng) as in Fr. blanc; -ay as in day; stressed syllable is shown in upper case) used with reference to Jean Françaix. The use of this pronunciation was also confirmed by one of Jean Françaix's pupils who was present at the time.

However, in 1945, his father is said to have told a BBC Music Department staff member that the pronunciation ought to be fraa(ng)-SECKS (this was confirmed by Jean Françaix at a concert in London in 1951) but that most people pronounced the family's surname as fraa(ng)-SAY, even in musical circles in France.

BBC Pronunciation Unit policy with regard to people's names is to recommend the pronunciation the individual prefers, wherever it is possible to establish this. In 1982, in view of the continuing debate surrounding the proper pronunciation, the Pronunciation Unit wrote to Jean Françaix to try to establish his own pronunciation preference. In his response that same year, we understand that he indicated that the pronunciation should be given as fraa(ng)-SAY. We have been recommending fraa(ng)-SAY ever since we received the written response from the composer. However, our database entry also includes a subsidiary note to broadcasters about evidence for the pronunciation fraa(ng)-SECKS."

to Martha of the PU.

[ardcarp]

F-F. Going off at a slight tangent (as usual) I am always intrigued by the subtleties of pronunciation of POULENC. I've noticed that in France, amongst non-musicians, the -EN is pronounced as it usually is in French; the received pronunciation amongst musicians over here and sometimes over there seems to be POUL-ANK. Can you comment?

[french frank]

Can you comment?

I certainly can! . In my view this is a strict question of phonetics.

Something we're not very good at is nasalising vowels like the French do. If you think of a standard English pronunciation Poo-LENK and add a good dose of French nasalisation, you should find that the vowel modifies naturally up towards the sound Poo-LANK.

But when you listen to French people speaking (standard French), your ears become attuned rather differently. Yes, they do say Poo-LENK, nasalised, which makes the vowel seem to be in an indeterminate position between -ENK and -ANK. Does that make sense?