Beethoven Symphony Cycles

[MickyD]

Nimbus always gave that sound to the Hanover Band - I have to say that for certain works, it was stunning, especially Cherubini's "Anacreon" overture. Sorry to say that I can't find this on YouTube - it was part of a 2 CD set recreating a 19th century Royal Philharmonic concert, and I see is now to be had for just 78p on Amazon. Beefy - you should snap this up immediately, even if it is before Saturday!!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Philharmonic-CHERUBINI-Luigi/dp/B002VCHAUI/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1461830015&sr=8-1&keywords=hanover+band+cherubini

[Beef Oven!]

Nimbus always gave that sound to the Hanover Band - I have to say that for certain works, it was stunning, especially Cherubini's "Anacreon" overture. Sorry to say that I can't find this on YouTube - it was part of a 2 CD set recreating a 19th century Royal Philharmonic concert, and I see is now to be had for just 78p on Amazon. Beefy - you should snap this up immediately, even if it is before Saturday!!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-P...band+cherubini

Thanks Micky, for that price it had to be done! 2 CD set, looks interesting. I bought it from Magpie (formerly Zoverstock).

There's still one available for 78p from a different seller.

[HighlandDougie]

I've been listening to the JEG, Hogwood, Norrington, Krivine, Goodman/Huggett and Antonini (except #9) symphony cycles and really enjoy the more modern approach.

I fancy adding another set to my collection and was thinking od Bruggen's 2011 live Rotterdam set or the van Immerseel with Anima Eterna.

Does anybody have a view on the merit of these recordings, or can offer a steer?

I have both these sets. The Immerseel is among my favourite LvB cycles: beautifully played, well recorded (in the Bruges Concertgebouw) and always interesting (as ever, with Immerseel, bringing his musicological insight to bear on the familiar). The downside (although not for me) is that his orchestra is relatively small, so, if you like 'Big Band Beethoven', you might feel a bit short-changed by a lack of heft.

Brüggen is more measured, tempi-wise, than his earlier cycle (and other cycles, like Krivine or Chailly or even the 1962 Karajan at times). I find his approach very appealing. 'Old man's Beethoven' is an insulting term but his performances do seem as if he is bringing years of thinking about and performing Beethoven to bear on the music. But, the drawback is that the recordings were made in De Doelen in Rotterdam, which has a pretty cavernous acoustic. Detail isn't lost but it does rather swim around at times - it sounds best in 5-channel SACD (yup, SACD again) but isn't that bad in ordinary 2-channel CD form. If reverberation isn't an issue, it has much to recommend it.

The late Nikolaus Harnoncourt's 4th and 5th is the Beethoven coupling which I have been listening to most often recently. It makes me regret even more his untimely death and the fact that we won't hear any more of his LvB. At times perverse, for sure, but well worth a listen, if you haven't already heard it.

[kea]

I got hold of the Anima Eterna recordings when they first came out - haven't played them much since, but I enjoyed them a lot, I do remember. I tend to find Bruggen too slow for my taste in Haydn, but don't know how he approaches Beethoven.

The sound of Brüggen's orchestra is unique and quite interesting (better in the Glossa set than the Philips one I think), and he's interpretively good in most respects. That said I find both sets too slow—e.g. a 19 minute opener to the Eroica in one of them, iirc.

[Cockney Sparrow]

The Immerseel and Bruggen are available on Naxos Music Library if you can access it.

(Updated my last,#20, post)

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?7506-Online-Naxos-music-library&p=553507&highlight=Naxos+Music+Library#post553507

[Richard Barrett]

Nimbus always gave that sound to the Hanover Band

I always thought it was because they liked to record pieces in single takes and the smeared acoustic would smooth out the mistakes... it was a fine ensemble of course, but I can't stand to listen to its Nimbus recordings.

I only have one Beethoven symphony set currently, which is Gardiner's. I've ended up not listening to these pieces very often, apart from no.6 which is particularly successful in that set. I find it very difficult to get involved in Beethoven's orchestral sound, which has come to sound to me predictable and/or bombastic. Maybe I should listen to Immerseel and Harnoncourt, both of whom I would think might have the potential to change that impression.

[Beef Oven!]

I have both these sets. The Immerseel is among my favourite LvB cycles: beautifully played, well recorded (in the Bruges Concertgebouw) and always interesting (as ever, with Immerseel, bringing his musicological insight to bear on the familiar). The downside (although not for me) is that his orchestra is relatively small, so, if you like 'Big Band Beethoven', you might feel a bit short-changed by a lack of heft.

Brüggen is more measured, tempi-wise, than his earlier cycle (and other cycles, like Krivine or Chailly or even the 1962 Karajan at times). I find his approach very appealing. 'Old man's Beethoven' is an insulting term but his performances do seem as if he is bringing years of thinking about and performing Beethoven to bear on the music. But, the drawback is that the recordings were made in De Doelen in Rotterdam, which has a pretty cavernous acoustic. Detail isn't lost but it does rather swim around at times - it sounds best in 5-channel SACD (yup, SACD again) but isn't that bad in ordinary 2-channel CD form. If reverberation isn't an issue, it has much to recommend it.

The late Nikolaus Harnoncourt's 4th and 5th is the Beethoven coupling which I have been listening to most often recently. It makes me regret even more his untimely death and the fact that we won't hear any more of his LvB. At times perverse, for sure, but well worth a listen, if you haven't already heard it.

Thank you very much HD for your considered reply, most helpful. I'm leaning towards the van Immerseel. I've preferred smaller forces in Beethoven for quite a few years now, so for me that's not a downside.

I haven't heard the Harnoncourt, so I may check that out too.

[Beef Oven!]

The Immerseel and Bruggen are available on Naxos Music Library if you can access it.

(Updated my last,#20, post)
http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...ary#post553507

Good thinking! Thanks!

[Beef Oven!]

I always thought it was because they liked to record pieces in single takes and the smeared acoustic would smooth out the mistakes... it was a fine ensemble of course, but I can't stand to listen to its Nimbus recordings.

I only have one Beethoven symphony set currently, which is Gardiner's. I've ended up not listening to these pieces very often, apart from no.6 which is particularly successful in that set. I find it very difficult to get involved in Beethoven's orchestral sound, which has come to sound to me predictable and/or bombastic. Maybe I should listen to Immerseel and Harnoncourt, both of whom I would think might have the potential to change that impression.

You might find Giovanni Antonini & Kammerorchester Basel, involving. Worth a try, IMV.

[Sir Velo]

. I find it very difficult to get involved in Beethoven's orchestral sound, which has come to sound to me predictable and/or bombastic. Maybe I should listen to Immerseel and Harnoncourt, both of whom I would think might have the potential to change that impression.

I find that viewpoint surprising given the debt Beethoven owes to Haydn; the Haydn influence is particularly evident in syms 1 and 8.

Of course, 3, 5, 7 and 9 contain some of the most extraordinary music ever dreamt up by the mind of man. Not LvB's fault that he has suffered from overexposure!

[MickyD]

Thanks Micky, for that price it had to be done! 2 CD set, looks interesting. I bought it from Magpie (formerly Zoverstock).

There's still one available for 78p from a different seller.

Glad to hear it - the set is worth having for the Cherubini overture alone! And you also get a really lovely full string orchestra version of the famous Boccherini minuet, as well as some other rarities. It's a fascinating programme.

Incidentally, this other 2 CD set from the Band is excellent too - Weber: Overtures, the two symphonies and a delightfully earthy performance of the Horn Concertino with our own Tony in the spotlight. He gets some wonderfully rude sounds out of the natural horn!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Weber-Symphonies-Horn-Concertino-Overtures/dp/B00004XPKJ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1461839172&sr=1-1&keywords=hanover+band+weber

[Richard Barrett]

I find that viewpoint surprising given the debt Beethoven owes to Haydn; the Haydn influence is particularly evident in syms 1 and 8.

Indeed, as was brought home to me again when I heard the 1st in a concert a few weeks ago. But I would prefer to have been hearing Haydn. For me overexposure isn't the problem; I don't have to hear any piece of music more often than I feel the need to (unless it's playing in a restaurant or something, but Beethoven isn't often chosen for situations like that.) No doubt the odd-numbered symphonies do contain extraordinary music as you say. It's just extraordinary music that for a while I haven't wanted much to hear, and I think this has to do with Beethoven's unsubtle instrumentation. Surely anyone would have to concede that this is the least interesting aspect of these pieces (being the aspect that Beethoven himself was least interested in).

[kea]

Beethoven was a remarkable orchestrator... but not for orchestra, for some reason. (The late quartets and last three piano sonatas are very unusual and effective in terms of "orchestration" if one can apply that term to them.) In terms of small bands Immerseel and Krivine are probably the most successful. I wouldn't mind a set from Ensemble Cristofori, whose piano concertos were good apart from the soloist. >.>

(I think all of the symphonies are extraordinary except for No. 1, which is merely very good. I guess I would think that though, seeing as Beethoven has been the most important composer in my life since very early childhood. And even then Beethoven's symphonies are... not his best work, nor among my favourite symphonies in general, possibly excepting the last.)

[Sir Velo]

Indeed, as was brought home to me again when I heard the 1st in a concert a few weeks ago. But I would prefer to have been hearing Haydn. For me overexposure isn't the problem; I don't have to hear any piece of music more often than I feel the need to (unless it's playing in a restaurant or something, but Beethoven isn't often chosen for situations like that.) No doubt the odd-numbered symphonies do contain extraordinary music as you say. It's just extraordinary music that for a while I haven't wanted much to hear, and I think this has to do with Beethoven's unsubtle instrumentation. Surely anyone would have to concede that this is the least interesting aspect of these pieces (being the aspect that Beethoven himself was least interested in).

It was of course the pure musical argument that drove him on rather than the depiction of incidental felicities (with the exception possibly of No.6). However, listen to the coup de theatre of the offstage trumpet call in Leonore No.3, or the doom laden unison in the strings of Coriolan and ask how the effect he achieves could have been done better? I am consistently struck by how "right" the orchestration is for the effect that Beethoven is after. Having said that, I wouldn't disagree that a poor performance of Beethoven can all too easily slip into bombast.

[Richard Barrett]

Beethoven was a remarkable orchestrator... but not for orchestra, for some reason. (The late quartets and last three piano sonatas are very unusual and effective in terms of "orchestration" if one can apply that term to them.) In terms of small bands Immerseel and Krivine are probably the most successful. I wouldn't mind a set from Ensemble Cristofori, whose piano concertos were good apart from the soloist.

All of this I agree with.