Beethoven Symphony Cycles

[Barbirollians]

Only yesterday, I was pondering Beethoven cycles. Of course, performers of stature see it as a milestone in their career to have the physical product brought to a paying public. But for myself, I question the need for yet more; I suppose I am the reverse of ever questing for new revelations.

To get back to the Dorati set, the Amazon blurb includes :
"Long unavailable, these scintillating recordings, combining weight and depth with dance-like clarity, are newly presented as a CD edition."

(The rest of the blurb: "For Antal Doráti, one of the mid-twentieth century's most gifted conductors, Beethoven was a central repertoire choice. This symphony cycle was recorded in 1975-76 at the beginning of his tenure as principal conductor of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.....")

Intriguing - oddly enough he conduced Beethoven with the RPO in the very first concert I saw as a teenager - Haydn 104, Beethoven Piano Concerto No2 with his wife Ilse von Alpenheim as the soloist and the Pastoral . I remember I thought the Pastoral was great at the time but I was about 15 !

[smittims]

Dorati's RPO set was recorded by Contour, I think a DG British subsidiary and first issued on their bargain label, (as were other Contour RPO and Bournemouth Sinfonietta recordings under George Hurst and Norman del Mar), then soon after on DG's mid-price Privilege label. I haven't heard them but the Penguin Guide was dismissive: 'four-square, plainspun, not really competitive even at mid-price' and so on.

[Petrushka]

Dorati's RPO set was recorded by Contour, I think a DG British subsidiary and first issued on their bargain label, (as were other Contour RPO and Bournemouth Sinfonietta recordings under George Hurst and Norman del Mar), then soon after on DG's mid-price Privilege label. I haven't heard them but the Penguin Guide was dismissive: 'four-square, plainspun, not really competitive even at mid-price' and so on.

All very odd. Why on earth are DG re-issuing what looks like a third division Beethoven set as competition for there own Premier League cycles from Karajan, Bernstein, Abbado, Nelsons etc, etc, etc? It isn't even offered as a cheapo alternative but looks to be offered at what passes for top price these days. On the face of it, it makes no commercial or artistic sense whatever.

[smittims]

Maybe there's a Dorati fan in an influential place in Universal. Who knows what goes on in the corridors of power?

I often think Dorati had patchy career on disc, shifting from label to label over many years. I've heard he was difficult to work with . He was offered a complete 'Firebird ' as a launch title for the enterprising 'Enigma' label, a brave British venture which ran out of money. The producer told me 'Mr . Dorati doesn't seem to speak any language known to man'.

[pastoralguy]

I remember I thought the Pastoral was great at the time but I was about 15 !

I first heard the Pastoral Symphony when I was 13 and STILL think it’s terrific!

[Barbirollians]

Dorati's RPO set was recorded by Contour, I think a DG British subsidiary and first issued on their bargain label, (as were other Contour RPO and Bournemouth Sinfonietta recordings under George Hurst and Norman del Mar), then soon after on DG's mid-price Privilege label. I haven't heard them but the Penguin Guide was dismissive: 'four-square, plainspun, not really competitive even at mid-price' and so on.

The Gramophone reviews are rather more complimentary especially about the Eroica but they certainly were not considered leading contenders even then.

[LHC]

Maybe there's a Dorati fan in an influential place in Universal. Who knows what goes on in the corridors of power?

I often think Dorati had patchy career on disc, shifting from label to label over many years. I've heard he was difficult to work with . He was offered a complete 'Firebird ' as a launch title for the enterprising 'Enigma' label, a brave British venture which ran out of money. The producer told me 'Mr . Dorati doesn't seem to speak any language known to man'.

This release appears to follow on from a recently released Decca 18 CD box set of Dorati's complete recordings in Detroit, so it would seem that there is someone at Universal who thinks it is worth re-releasing his old recordings.

The blurb on DG's website states that the release is intended to "commemorate 35 years of Antal Doráti’s passing in 2023", and goes on to say that "the 5-CD set includes liner notes (EN/DE) by well-acclaimed British music broadcaster and writer Rob Cowan and comes with a stunning cover art adapted from the original LP release".

[smittims]

Further thoughts on the origin of these recordings drew me to the charismatic figure of Brian Culverhouse, who used to make recordings as a private venture,then sell them to the big companies or persuade themto distribute them, Polydor and Contour were, I think, the popular arm of DG (Polygram); weren't they James Last's label? Some of Culverhouse's recordings were published by them, such as Antony Rolfe Johnson's discs of English song and Norman del Mar's Elgar, with the RPO. So this may have been one of his projects.

[Barbirollians]

I first heard the Pastoral Symphony when I was 13 and STILL think it’s terrific!

So do I - was referring to the Dorati performance I heard.

[HighlandDougie]

Smittims is on the ball here. According to Discogs (searched using 'Brian Culverhouse'), the Beethoven symphonies with Dorati and the RPO were indeed produced by Brian Culverhouse, although whether he was commissioned to do so by DG or did so then sold them to it is not noted. I suspect the latter, as earlier Contour releases of Beethoven symphonies featured the likes of 1950s Franz Konwitschny and Willem van Otterloo, so buying a ready-made, brand-new, well-recorded cycle with a respectable orchestra and its principal conductor off the shelf might have seemed like an attractive proposition at the time. This was, after all, the period when Decca were releasing the boxes of Dorati's Haydn symphonies.

Brian Culverhouse's many recordings as producer include various other gems such as the Alexander Gibson 'Music of the Four Countries' release. I had also forgotten that he was responsible for the EMI/HMV 'Great Cathedral Organ Series'.

While re-releasing the Dorati cycle might seem a bit like barrel-scraping on the part of Universal (as per the slightly sniffy comments above), it seems no worse than re-releasing the comparable cycles of Hermann Scherchen and William Steinberg.

[Barbirollians]

Smittims is on the ball here. According to Discogs (searched using 'Brian Culverhouse'), the Beethoven symphonies with Dorati and the RPO were indeed produced by Brian Culverhouse, although whether he was commissioned to do so by DG or did so then sold them to it is not noted. I suspect the latter, as earlier Contour releases of Beethoven symphonies featured the likes of 1950s Franz Konwitschny and Willem van Otterloo, so buying a ready-made, brand-new, well-recorded cycle with a respectable orchestra and its principal conductor off the shelf might have seemed like an attractive proposition at the time. This was, after all, the period when Decca were releasing the boxes of Dorati's Haydn symphonies.

Brian Culverhouse's many recordings as producer include various other gems such as the Alexander Gibson 'Music of the Four Countries' release. I had also forgotten that he was responsible for the EMI/HMV 'Great Cathedral Organ Series'.

While re-releasing the Dorati cycle might seem a bit like barrel-scraping on the part of Universal (as per the slightly sniffy comments above), it seems no worse than re-releasing the comparable cycles of Hermann Scherchen and William Steinberg.

That reminds me that I bought the Konwitschny on Fontana a few years ago and have not listened to it . I got the feeling at the time that the consensus appeared to be that the Seventh was great and the rest pretty much wasn't .

[richardfinegold]

That reminds me that I bought the Konwitschny on Fontana a few years ago and have not listened to it . I got the feeling at the time that the consensus appeared to be that the Seventh was great and the rest pretty much wasn't .

That set was offered for about $5 as an mp3 . I downloaded it and hated it

[smittims]

I think Scherchen and Steinberg were always more respected as Beethoven interpreters than Dorati, Scherchen for his close-to-original-Metronome tempi, and Steinberg because, at 12s6d. on Music for Pleasure his discs were bargains, as the original Capitol recordings weren't then very old. Dorati of course was enjoying fame for his Haydn ; his Kodaly series was also well-received.

[Wolfram]

I'm not sure the world really needs another Beethoven cycle of this type. Watch - it will get stunning reviews now. I still enjoy his Haydn symphonies though even if the minuets, in particular, sound a bit sluggish now. But the Dorati recording that I most admire is the, now almost forgotten, Flying Dutchman with London, Rysanek and the orchestra of the ROH on Decca.

[smittims]

I remember that Dutchman. It was good, as was his 'Aegyptische Helena' with Gwyneth Jones. And his Haydn operas are worth a whirl occasionally.