Beethoven Symphony Cycles

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Any responses to the discussion yesterday between Andrew MacGregor and Stephen Johnson about the three new Beethoven Symphony Cycles?

Following the excerpts from the Pastoral in last week's BaL I was initially attracted to the Krivine set, and the bits that we were given yesterday made me even more eager to hear the whole set (even though SJ made clear his preference for the Chailly set: I often find the selected clips on CD Review demonstrate the flaws in the reviewer's comments.) Balance, pacing, timbre and dynamics all suggested that Krivine offers valid new insights about these astonishing scores, whereas Chailly's seemed to me to be rushed and poorly articulated. (Abbado achieves a better "melding" of "traditional" and "HIPP" IMO). The Thielemann set struck me as wilfully distorted and risibly perverse, saying more about the conductor than the Music: recent-ish cycles by Haitink or Barenboim get closer to the scores than this and there are so many older recordings that achieve what Thielemann sets out to do with far greater success.

Does anyone know if the complete cycle(s) paint a different picture?

Best Wishes.

[Alison]

Your observations on the Chailly set accord completely with my own. I admire the stylishness
of the playing yet the symphonies simply don't catch fire IMHO. A serious disappointment.

I can hardly wait to get back to Mackerras, Abbado and Haitink.

[Mahlerei]

ferney

Having recently worked through Thielemann's cycle I'd say your characterisation of his conducting is spot on. His First and Fourth are probably the best in the set, the Eroica curiously undramatic - effete is a word that springs to mind - and the Sixth is frankly bizarre. The Ninth is average, the soloists unexceptional. He has a most peculiar podium presence as well.

[Bryn]

Your observations on the Chailly set accord completely with my own. I admire the stylishness
of the playing yet the symphonies simply don't catch fire IMHO. A serious disappointment.

I can hardly wait to get back to Mackerras, Abbado and Haitink.

And Anima Eterna/Immerseel, I hope.

[remdataram]

ferney

Having recently worked through Thielemann's cycle I'd say your characterisation of his conducting is spot on. His First and Fourth are probably the best in the set, the Eroica curiously undramatic - effete is a word that springs to mind - and the Sixth is frankly bizarre. The Ninth is average, the soloists unexceptional. He has a most peculiar podium presence as well.

I'd also agree. I've recently posted concern over Rattle's facial expressions on the 'BBC4 BPO/Rattle 2004 Prom Friday, Nov 11 19.40' thread and now find myself agreeing about Thielemann's posture!

I must be getting old and crabby but, having invested in the DVD of symphonies 7-9 we sat back and listened to the ninth. We were both wondering whether any EC legislation was being disregarded by the VPO's blatant sexist policy as Thielemann's podium antics finished off any hope of enjoying the ninth.

We will listen to the three symphonies in due course, once we can purge our memories of the visual disappointments.

Having bought and thoroughly enjoyed the Lucerne/Abbado Mahler series and the BPO/Abbado Beethoven symphonies on DVD I fear we have been spoilt. From such dazzling heights the 'penny is beginning to drop' that audio only is the way to go - after all Karajan DVD's are really awful to watch; but his 1963 Beethoven remains my overall favourite set along with the Cluytens.

[Steerpike]

Good to read your posts, Ferney et al - I though it must just be me when I heard the review. I heard the Chailly as just dull, despite the speeds and the Thielemann as sometimes absurd. Only Furtwängler was Furtwängler, and even he didn't always manage to be, so to speak. The Krivine in contrast always made me eager to hear more. So what if it occasionally sounds strained - Beethoven isn't streamlined.
Nice to know I'm not alone!

[HighlandDougie]

I have Krivine, Chailly and, most recently, Cluytens. "Dull" is not the word which springs to mind with Chailly. Sometimes too fast - I think SJ said something about not letting the music 'breathe' (which Cluytens certainly does) - but also exciting, stunningly well played and, for me and my weakness for 'big' halls, gloriously recorded. The excerpts yesterday truly didn't do it justice. It's not perfect - I still find the finale of the 8th to be too fast - but, mixed in with listening to the Krivine (cheap as chips here in France and, shame on me, bought following RC's enthusiastic recommendation) and the immensely satisfying Cluytens, I'm currently happy with that particular combination of approaches. I don't think that I'll be adding Thielemann - and the Immerseel Symphonie Fantastique is so pedestrian that it puts me off his Beethoven. I did, though, notice (see the Bargains post) that HMV have the Davis/Dresden cycle for a paltry sum....

[Thomas Roth]

If you describe the Chailly set as "poorly articulated" you need to have your ears examined. I have never read such a strange and inaccurate comment.

[Nachtigall]

Well, I'm no authority on Beethoven interpretation, but on the basis of what I heard on CD Review and Richard Osborne's extremely favourable review in the Gramophone I've ordered the Chailly. The only other complete set of the symphonies I have is the Zinman with the Tonhalle, Zürich.

[Nick Armstrong]

Not tempted by Thielemann and Chailly, the latter's readings seeming to me from what I've heard (including the concert performance of No 7) to be trim and efficient but oddly soulless. And the Krivine: the Harmonie-style performance of the scherzo played by SJ on Saturday was wonderful, but the moment the strings came back in, I can't listen... That scrawny metallic string sound is just plain nasty to my ears.

I'm just loading the Cluytens set on to my iPod. It arrived on Friday

[Petrushka]

I'm just loading the Cluytens set on to my iPod. It arrived on Friday

I listened to the 7th from the Cluytens set last night and was struck again (as I am throughout the set) by the glorious woodwind playing, the oboe in particular.

It is strange that after the appearance of umpteen Beethoven cycles over the years the Cluytens more than holds its own and seems to be the cycle of choice amongst those who discover it. Rather overshadowed by the almost contemporary Karajan cycle, I find it better played, better recorded and, dare I say it, better interpreted than its more famous rival.

The Chailly set is on my Christmas wish list even though I found the recent Barbican performance of No 9 too superficial. Chailly will do it all differently in 10 years time, to borrow a phrase from Karajan.

[Chris Newman]

I have many assorted single performances of all the symphonies (I particularly love Boult's Six, Monteux's Seven and Toscanini's Nine) and the Zinman, Zurich Tonhalle set. I am awaiting receipt of Sir Charles Mackerras's RLPO set which I spotted on HMV for £7.99 (post free). I was quite impressed by the Chailly Leipzig performances on Radio Three. I cannot see myself buying Thielemann's Beethoven, nor wanting to hear it live. What I have heard of his sound is like hearing much loved music played by in the style of a Mantovani Orchestra.

[Barbirollians]

I thought the Krivine sounded a rather over emaciated set to me - I would prefer to stick with Norrington or Gardiner . The Chailly Eroica slow movement that SJ liked struck me as jaunty and wrong , the rest OK but not incandescent - the Thielemann just perverse .

None of them strike me as necessary purchases.

[jayne lee wilson]

I haven't felt moved to any recent aquisitions, but most curious about the Krivine, feel a bit cash-strapped now too...
Still enjoying Scherchen, especially the 1951 Pastoral, and Bruggen's wonderful, never reissued, still underrated cycle. Hear Scherchen for a lesson in how to play the 8th's finale at high speed! RPO seem to be loving every minute!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Bruggen's wonderful, never reissued, still underrated cycle

I loved Bruggen's Eroica, but for some reason I always thought that Phillips had withdrawn support for the complete cycle. I was delighted a couple of weeks ago to see that a full cycle had been recorded, and that the set was still available: 'tho' beyond my price range ! (Maybe I should contribute to Caliban's "Winning the Lottery" Thread?)

The Krivine set is priced around £25 - and Christmas is coming.