Problematic ripping CDs

[Dave2002]

It's probably an iTunes 10.5 issue

Over the weekend I ripped one of the problematic CDs (the Isserlis BBC MM disc) on a PC using iTunes. I did not update iTunes.
The version of iTunes was not the current one - iTunes 10.5. Today, on machines I have access to, I ripped the same CD on Mac OS - again an earlier version of iTunes. Was OK in both cases. I also ripped the CD in Windows XP (on a similar iMac) having downloaded the latest version of iTunes - 10.5. This rip showed all the horrible distortion I have been commenting on.

It looks as though iTunes 10.5 is bust, and this applies both to the Apple and to the Windows versions.

Other people have commented on problems with iTunes 10.5, but not this particular ripping issue. They have also commented on the tardiness of Apple to respond to bug reports etc.

I'm not sure if I can "downgrade" my iTunes to 10.4.x - it might be possible if I've still got an installer file in my Download folder. I'm beginning to wish I'd installed a large drive and Time Machine much earlier, which would make reverting to the older iTunes much easier.

If anyone from Apple reads this - iTunes 10.5 is bust, and some discs do not rip properly. It is repeatable, and it doesn't just affect Mac OS X, but also Windows.

If anyone questions my methodology, I can also refine it further by doing the tests on just one machine, though it would probably take all morning to do, and is hardly worth it. I think I have enough evidence now.

[pmolyneux]

It is a problem with iTunes and the format of recent CDs from BBC Music Magazine — see http://www.classical-music.com/forum...r-cd-t335.html

[Dave2002]

It seems to be a specifically iTunes 10.5 problem, and it's common to both Mac and Windows versions. It doesn't only affect BBC MM issues either.
Mac users can use other players - such as Cog, VLC and Songbird and even Apple's own Quicktime player, which should give good results.

For ripping (sorry, Ogg and Flac only) Songbird works quite well. If anyone desperately wants to get their music into Alac form for iTunes compatibility, it is possible, but tedious. Tools such as xACT can do the job.

PC users will still have the problem with iTunes 10.5, but there are quite a few other options for players and for ripping, which are fairly well known.

Apple need to get this fixed. If anyone uses headphones they could easily have their hearing damaged if they listen to the noise which iTunes 10.5 puts out for long. What is unknown is whether the recordings which iTunes 10.5 does manage to handle are in fact also damaged in some way, but much less audibly. So far I've assumed that they're either damaged (pretty completely) or not (i.e completely error free).

[JQW]

I've had the same problem, but not just with recent BBC Music Magazine titles. A couple of JS Bach lute titles on Brilliant have the same problem - in this case the lute sounds like a badly overdriven electric guitar.

There will be a new version of iTunes appearing very shortly to tie in with the iTunes Match service that will be going live in the US, most likely sometime this week. Whether this will include a fix to this problem is another matter.

[Biffo]

As a fellow Georgian I can sympathize. I have so far resisted buying an ipod or similar device but I do download music and store it on a hard drive. My limited experience of using iTunes has led me to regard it as complete rubbish. Although I do not own an ipod I became involved in helping someone else 'rip' a large number of CDs for use in the car and on holiday. For possibly 90% of the time it was fine but for a significant number of issues it was a totally frustrating experience. Old fuddy-duddy that I am I dont want Bach's Brandenburg No 1 with a movement missing (actually put on its own somewhere else) and the rest played in a random order. iTunes also lost movements, whole works and, like the Bach, sometimes scattered individual movements at random. If iTunes decides it is not going to load a work correctly there is nothing you can do about it; you get the same stupid result no matter how many times you try.

[JQW]

iTunes 10.5.1 is now available as a download from Apple's website, and will soon appear in Software Update.

Unfortunately it hasn't resolved the problem - I've just tried to rip the Isserlis CD again with the same results.

[Dave2002]

iTunes 10.5.1 is now available as a download from Apple's website, and will soon appear in Software Update.

Unfortunately it hasn't resolved the problem - I've just tried to rip the Isserlis CD again with the same results.

I can confirm this too. It still fails to play or rip CD2 of my Hugo Alfven Neeme Järvi set properly. I assume the same will be true for all similar problem CDs.

Oddly I also had a problem installing 10.5.1 on my iMac, and had to go back to Apple web page to download a new copy of the .dmg file for running on my iMac. I think it works now, though the problems noted remain. Apple seems to have screwed up a bit with 10.5. I don't recall problems with installing new versions before, so from now on I think I'll keep all the installer files in case I want to go back to a previous version, though how easy that will be to do I don't know. If I could get the dmg file for 10.4 maybe it would be possible to revert to that version, and get round the problem. Although it's a nuisance, it doesn't affect every CD, and the majority still seem to play and rip OK, but some which might be of interest here don't work - e.g some of the recent BBC MM issues.

If any readers are still on 10.4 or earlier versions, I suggest they don't upgrade until (when and if?) Apple gets these problems sorted out.

[JQW]

I think I've identified the cause of the problem, and why it only affects some CDs.

The CD standard allows CDs to be optionally encoded using something known as pre-emphasis, where high frequencies are boosted prior to recording. Pre-emphasis was common in the early days of CDs with Japanese produced discs, but nowadays its usage appears to be limited to just a handful of indie classical labels. It seems that the affected CDs I've come across have all been mastered with pre-emphasis enabled.

A standard CD player will detect that pre-empahsis has been enabled on such a disc and decode accordingly at the D/A conversion stage.

When ripping a CD to a computer, though, de-emphasis has to be performed entirely in software, and can be somewhat problematic. In the case of iTunes 10.5, it seems that the pre-emphasis code has become broken in some way.

[Bryn]

You are almost certainly right, IOW, as was author of the earlier message making essentially the same point.

[Dave2002]

I think I've identified the cause of the problem, and why it only affects some CDs.

The CD standard allows CDs to be optionally encoded using something known as pre-emphasis, where high frequencies are boosted prior to recording. Pre-emphasis was common in the early days of CDs with Japanese produced discs, but nowadays its usage appears to be limited to just a handful of indie classical labels. It seems that the affected CDs I've come across have all been mastered with pre-emphasis enabled.

A standard CD player will detect that pre-empahsis has been enabled on such a disc and decode accordingly at the D/A conversion stage.

When ripping a CD to a computer, though, de-emphasis has to be performed entirely in software, and can be somewhat problematic. In the case of iTunes 10.5, it seems that the pre-emphasis code has become broken in some way.

You may well be right. It is the case that several of the discs which I have reported as "bad" do have the pre-emphasis, though this does not necessarily prove the issue, even it is likely.

Is there any easy way to tell whether a disc has pre-emphasis? Also, if that is the case, why have the BBC MM CDs started being made with pre-emphasis - if that is the reason for some of the failures? I used to have a CD player (pity I got rid of it, though it did have a fault - I could perhaps have had it fixed) which would detect discs with pre-emphasis. I used it for 10 years or so, then one day the light came on to tell me that the pre-emphasis circuits were operating - on a Japanese CD of course.

[johnb]

Dave,

If you have access to a Windows PC and EAC it is quite easy to tell if a CD has pre-emphasis. EAC has a column on the far right (you might need to scroll to see it) which indicates pre-emphasis.

In my experience CDs with pre-emphasis are very rare. The only ones I have come across are the Vegh Beethoven String Quartets and the recent freebie Horenstein Mahler 1.

[Bryn]

Dave,

If you have access to a Windows PC and EAC it is quite easy to tell if a CD has pre-emphasis. EAC has a column on the far right (you might need to scroll to see it) which indicates pre-emphasis.

In my experience CDs with pre-emphasis are very rare. The only ones I have come across are the Vegh Beethoven String Quartets and the recent freebie Horenstein Mahler 1.

I guess the Mahler, at least, kept its pre-emphasis from the original Unicorn-Kanchana issue. I had bot noticed it re. the Vegh Beethoven, but then I have no tried to rip them. I just spin them now and then. I wonder if their Bartoks are the same. i might check, just out of interest.

[Dave2002]

Dave,

If you have access to a Windows PC and EAC it is quite easy to tell if a CD has pre-emphasis. EAC has a column on the far right (you might need to scroll to see it) which indicates pre-emphasis.

In my experience CDs with pre-emphasis are very rare. The only ones I have come across are the Vegh Beethoven String Quartets and the recent freebie Horenstein Mahler 1.

John,

Thanks for the hints. It'd be good if someone could find out if there's an easy way to detect the pre-emphasis using Mac OS as well. Obviously some CD players have visible displays or lights, but most don't now I think.

Some of the recent BBC MM discs are impossible to rip/listen to in iTunes. Example - the fairly recent Bruckner 3. Are these also encoded with pre-emphasis?
I can check later maybe - though I try to avoid using windoze as much as possible. Also, on reflection, I put that CD somewhere, but where .....?

If they are also recorded with pre-emphasis, then that might tend to confirm the diagnosis on iTunes. If not, then as I warned before, it may be a case of sufficient but not necessary.

[remdataram]

I've not read all the posts in this thread but notice that the Vegh Beethoven String Quartets have been cited as recordings with pre-emphasis.

I rip my CDs with freeware software called 'Ripstation Micro' into FLAC format and then use Mp3tag to organise my files into a squeezebox database. I've ripped over 500 CDs and have only encountered one problem - the 2005 Abbado/BPO Mahler 6. The Vegh quartets were no problem at all. Perhaps Ripstation Micro could be worth trying with some 'stubborn' CDs.

[johnb]

I've not read all the posts in this thread but notice that the Vegh Beethoven String Quartets have been cited as recordings with pre-emphasis.

Perhaps I should have said that I bought the Vegh set about ten years ago and it was on the Naive label. Since then it might well have been remastered.

EAC rips CDs with pre-emphasis but it doesn't correct the pre-emphasis and you need to use software tools to accomplish that (the free SOX utility can do the job). If the pre-emphasis isn't corrected the recording will sound rather bright.

By the way, it seems that EAC will only detect pre-emphasis from the discs 'TOC', not from the subcode so it is possible for a CD to have pre-emphasis which EAC doesn't recognise.