Bartok Violin Concerto No 2 - a stunning discovery for me anyway

[HighlandDougie]

Jayne

My mistake. On going back to the Qobuz site, I see that 16 bit (the rate at which I downloaded it) is described as CD quality. As you say, it's a shame that Qobuz don't offer Hungaroton/Pentatone at Studio Master quality, although a download of that size would take forever here in my French village as, to the great shame of Monsieur le Maire, we have by far the slowest ADSL speed in the area. I'll be very interested in your views on the recording quality which I still find rather uningratiating. Not a patch on the Hungaroton SACD of Kocsis in the Concerto for Orchestra. Fizzing performances, though, especially I thought of the Violin Rhapsodies.

HD

[Barbirollians]

I see the reviewer in IRR preferred Steinbacher in Bartok 2 but raved about Ehnes other performances on the disc .

[jayne lee wilson]

Hungaroton still not here... naughty Amazon. Patience now. I'll, er, be back.

Jayne

My mistake. On going back to the Qobuz site, I see that 16 bit (the rate at which I downloaded it) is described as CD quality. As you say, it's a shame that Qobuz don't offer Hungaroton/Pentatone at Studio Master quality, although a download of that size would take forever here in my French village as, to the great shame of Monsieur le Maire, we have by far the slowest ADSL speed in the area. I'll be very interested in your views on the recording quality which I still find rather uningratiating. Not a patch on the Hungaroton SACD of Kocsis in the Concerto for Orchestra. Fizzing performances, though, especially I thought of the Violin Rhapsodies.

HD

[Keybawd]

I got to know the work 40 years ago from Isaac Stern's recording so that still has a very special place in my affections. The alternative last movement is in fact only the last couple of pages. In the original version the work ended quietly but Bartok was persuaded to rewrite the ending with a bit of flash. The two endings are printed in the score.

[Barbirollians]

Any report yet jayne ?

[jayne lee wilson]

A truly inviting invitation!

Finally, it arrived... genuinely lost in the post, Amazon delivered its replacement earlier this week. (Mind you, the September IRR also disappeared... is there a thieving musical magpie in the Post Office?

Well, Barbirollians!
Sorry about this, but if you bought the Steinbacher/Janowski then watch out - you really need this one too. Even if, as I do, you "only" listen in 2-channel CD.

Take the first 2 variations in the tranquillo: Steinbacher is pure, beautiful, noble, the orchestra sweeps grandly in, spacious and atmospheric; the stage palbably 3-D. What could be missing? Kelemen shows you what: character. He finds a tension, a fragility, which has me (literally!) holding my breath; and intensifies, deepens the bleak, empty mood after the first passionate tutti from Kocsis' orchestra. In the 3rd variation he has a rougher, almost gypsy-like cutting edge...

these wide-ranging qualities are vividly present throughout the performance, uncanny in charging almost every phrase and musical paragraph with fantasy, fire and passion; matching its many moods; it is indeed exceptional.

Look at the timings: Steinbacher/Janowski:16'39/10'35/12'21
Kelemen/Kocsis: 15'12/9'03/11'09

Nearly 4' difference, and it shows in the nature of the readings: the one spacious and pure, an audiophile's choice, not completely lacking character but more devoted to beauty of sound and the accurate presentation of the notes, in an audiophile sonic picture.
The other - simply intoxicated with the piece: its folk-song roots, the gypsy attack of the soloist's voice, the explosive passion and fantasy of the orchestral accompaniment; the Hungarian National Philharmonic (truly an apt name here!) sound as if tied to Kocsis' baton; he throws them around with abandon, then - relaxes completely, with a flick of the wrist...

Now, HighlandDougie was quite right, there is a sonic limitation - the Hungaroton is close and dry, rather 2-dimensional, with little atmosphere or presence of an acoustic; perhaps that comes out in multi-channel. But it doesn't obscure the character of the performance, maybe even emphasises it, and should offer nothing fierce in 2-channel to offend the ear in a well-balanced system. It almost reminds me of some early stereo from Mercury, or CBS in Severance hall, the focus closely on the performers, rather to the exclusion of the hall.

The timings find Kelemen quite close to the Menuhin/Dorati performance, which is a great one, but Kelemen finds a far greater range of mood and tonal colour, he's never afraid to attack the piece with a gypsy cut-and-thrust on the edge of his tone. Menuhin, like Stern with Haitink, tends to remain sweetly and beautifully himself - none the worse one might think, but wait till you hear Kelemen.

Go on, go and get it... I promise you, regret is not on the agenda.
JLW

Any report yet jayne ?

[HighlandDougie]

Jayne

Having changed my set-up (Musical Fidelity gone to the great hi-fi scrapheap in the sky; Naimuniti installed), it sounds better - a bit more warmth to the sound, although with the violin still very much to the front. You are right in the comparison with Mercury recordings. The performance, though, is terrific. I've probably listened to the concerto (and the rhapsodies) more often in the last three weeks than in the last thirty years. I strongly second the "buy" recommendation.

HD

[Barbirollians]

Which Menuhin/Dorati are you referring to Jayne ? There are three at the last count .

I shall have to buy this Kelemen now !

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry for that omission Bb, this was the Mercury stereo one with the Minneapolis S.O., recorded 2/1957 in Carnegie Hall (between midnight and 0500, after an evening concert!).

Which Menuhin/Dorati are you referring to Jayne ? There are three at the last count .

I shall have to buy this Kelemen now !

[Sator]

Hello folks, first time poster here - from the Antipodes. I found you while Googling the Bartók Violin Concerto. Sorry, we all hate newbie necroposters who awaken looong dead threads, but in this case I thought it reasonably justified (but nonetheless await condemnation by a chorus of forum regulars ).

I found the recommendation for the Kelemen to be highly interesting. I also like Zoltan Koscis . Furthermore, I have an innate allergy to slow tempi and the slighter faster timings in the outer movements brought a smile to my face. So given the praise lavished on them, I thought I would be onto a winner here. I was surprised to find that on listening repeatedly to samples of Kelemen on different sites (Presto, iTunes) I just couldn't warm to his phrasing. It sounded too choppy to my ears and not lyrical enough. I guess it's horses for courses.

On the other hand one performance that blew me away was the Ivry Gitlis partnership with Jascha Horenstein. WOW! And I have been listening to the Menuhin-Furtwängler for many years. Both of these artists are musicians I revere but the Gitlis was truly something else.

Another one that made me prick my ears up was the David Oistrakh partnered by Rozdhestvensky. I found it on iTunes. What a pity I can't find a 16 or 24 bit FLAC download anywhere. This is an epic reading of the work that emphasises its dramatic aspects over its lyricism but - oh - such power and passion!

Yet another I have heard good things about on other music fora include the Tossy Spivakovsky reading. IIRC, he was closely associated with this work (???? gave its premier). The only recording I can find is with Pierre Monteaux but you can only download it when you buy the entire set - a bit expensive if you only want the Bartók. Here is the link to it on Presto:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/West%2BHill%2BRadio%2BArchive/WHRA6022#download

I thought the reading shared a little in common with the Steinbacher reading, which I may yet buy just because it is available in a 24 bit download from eClassical:

http://www.eclassical.com/performers/steinbacher-arabella/bartok-violin-concertos-nos-1-and-2.html

I am also partial to Janowski as a conductor.

Cheers, folks!

[Bryn]

Hi Sator, and welcome. I hope you will not let your distaste for slow tempi put you off the recently released historic recording with Ms. Handel. I have a taste for the Zehetmair/Fischer recording on Berlin Classics. The Gertler/Ancerl on Supraphon is also rather special.

[umslopogaas]

Its always interesting to see people listing versions, presumably on CD, that originally came out on LP (though this is a bit speculative, I'm sure I'm not the only poster who maintains an LP collection as well). But I assume, for example that the reference to Gertler/Ancerl on Supraphon means the company have reissued it on CD. I have the LP (SUA ST 50696) and it has a little sticker on the front "Grand Prix, Academie Charles Cros, Paris" and I recall it is very good indeed. I like Supraphons, you find interesting music and musicians that arent perhaps as well known as they should be.

I have, all on LP and in no particular order:

Gertler, Ancerl (Supraphon)
Menuhin, Furtwangler (HMV mono)
Menuhin, Minneapolis SO, Dorati (Mercury)
Menuhin, NPO, Dorati (HMV)
Garay, Kegel (DG)
Szeryng, Haitink (Philips)
Stern, Bernstein (Fontana)
Chung, Solti (Decca)
Silverstein, Leinsdorf (RCA)
Perlman, Previn (HMV)

I havent played any of them very recently, but the ones that stand out in my memory are Chung and Solti, and Menuhin and Dorati (HMV). I wouldnt willing part with any of them, though.

I've never come across Gyorgy Garay anywhere else. The sleeve gives no information about him.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, welcome, Sator: and no need to apologize for reopening a Thread as interesting as this one, especially with such stimulating performances mentioned!


(Errr ... "'Tossy' Spivakovsky"?!)

[Bryn]

Its always interesting to see people listing versions, presumably on CD, that originally came out on LP (though this is a bit speculative, I'm sure I'm not the only poster who maintains an LP collection as well). But I assume, for example that the reference to Gertler/Ancerl on Supraphon means the company have reissued it on CD.

Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions. I too originally had the Gertler/Ancerl on LP, but yes, it has been issued on a CD transfer, in the Ancerl Gold series from Supraphon.

[Roehre]

Its always interesting to see people listing versions, presumably on CD, that originally came out on LP (though this is a bit speculative, I'm sure I'm not the only poster who maintains an LP collection as well).

Umslopogaas, be assured that i am using my LPs in my music collection on a very regular basis