Otto Klemperer: The Remastered Edition

[Wolfram]

In the order of £1.85 per CD.

Thank you for that, Mephistopheles.

[Wolfram]

In the order of £1.85 per CD.

It’s a lot of money to shell out on a recordings that I already have. I’m tempted, thank you Bryn, but I think it’s too much. If those remasterings were to be made available as single discs then you could select those amongst your duplicates that are worth it to you to have in better sound. Having said that, the original sleeve artwork is just designed to lure you in. Plug the ears and lash yourself to the mast.

[HighlandDougie]

It’s a lot of money to shell out on a recordings that I already have. I’m tempted, thank you Bryn, but I think it’s too much. If those remasterings were to be made available as single discs then you could select those amongst your duplicates that are worth it to you to have in better sound. Having said that, the original sleeve artwork is just designed to lure you in. Plug the ears and lash to the mast.

You could live on grass, dust and water for a couple of weeks then it's paid for?? As Bryn has suggested upthread, the remasterings might end up being streamed but, in the meantime, I'm deriving a great deal of pleasure from this box. I vowed that I would buy no more big boxes (e.g. Haitink or Abbado) but don't have any regrets about breaking my vow for this box. And, as an adjunct to my new KEF Reference speakers, my listening has been a delight.

[Petrushka]

I'm wondering if Warner are going to reissue all those multiple Karajan boxes in one big box (with another for the operas, perhaps) in the same way? To be fair, the sound on those discs is pretty good and, as I have them all, would be a tougher proposition to purchase. My guess is that they will.

Anyway, enough whataboutery for now. I'm off to play Klemperer's recording of the Mahler 2.

[Alison]

Not too many duplicates for me so thanks for the steer Petrushka. Could form a backbone of autumn listening. Got a few things to catch up on.

[Bryn]

I'm wondering if Warner are going to reissue all those multiple Karajan boxes in one big box (with another for the operas, perhaps) in the same way? To be fair, the sound on those discs is pretty good and, as I have them all, would be a tougher proposition to purchase. My guess is that they will.

Anyway, enough whataboutery for now. I'm off to play Klemperer's recording of the Mahler 2.

What, like this, you mean?

[Petrushka]

What, like this, you mean?

Not quite. I had in mind a single box, remastered afresh and with original jacket artwork. I think it will happen, plus a box of the operas.

[Bryn]

A timely tie-in 4-page item o Klemperer in the new BBC Music Magazine. Despite having earlier transfers of many of the recordings in the new boxed set, I feel more and more tempted, though I will await its hopeful availability via QOBUZ.

[Dave2002]

Emphatically yes in relation to the Mozart 'Last Six Symphonies' And Mendelssohn/Schumann SACDs. I can do no better than quote Petrushka, "(providing) plenty of air around the sound". As Bryn implies, the art of remastering has reached greater heights than the 2012 SACDs, good as those are. The new remastering(s) would seem to provide clear evidence of the progress which has been made. Unlike Andrew Rose and his "Ambient Stereo", as tasteful and effective as the results of that might be, the use of the master tapes seems to have steered the remastering studio in the direction of 'cleaning up' the recordings, rather than anything more.

As to duplications, yes of some repertoire where stereo remakes were recorded. Otherwise, and Petrushka can keep me right, not that I can see.

Indeed - re duplications [triplications etc.] boxes such as the Walter box have multiple copies of Mahler and Mozart, with different orchestras and at different times in the conductor's career, and indeed so did the earlier HMV/EMI Karajan boxes. The additional performances can be of interest to some, giving different insights into orchestras and the ways in which conductors changed their interpretations over time - though some seem to have produced an almost identical performance whatever and whenever the situation.

Re "remastering" - I'd be surprised [ though willing to be ...] if "simply" cleaning up technical sound quality made a big difference - unless of course it was compromised in the first place - which is a suspicion I have had about some companies. For example, I once heard some of Barenboim's Elgar symphonies at a Hi-Fi show in the 1970s, and I recall the sound being extremely good - supposedly from master tapes. The LPs and CDs later issued did not have the same "guts" as what I heard there, so allowing for tape deterioration - which can be a disaster for some recordings [e.g. Fedoseyev's Glazunov symphonies], getting something close to the original master tapes would not in some cases be something to be sneezed at. [I have wondered whether some recordings were deliberately reduced in quality for the distribution medium, which allows for future reissues, and new revenue for the same material. I don't just mean altering the tonal balance to cope with vinyl, which was a necessary part of recording to discs.]
On the other hand, if many digital processes are applied - and if multi track recordings were made [either explicitly, or with overall recordings with spot or other mics recorded on separate channels] then it becomes possible to rebalance a performance, alter the tone, and also to add new ambience - for example to situate a recording in different real concert halls or churches. It is also possible to modify the dynamics.

Changing the ambience can have a big effect, and also mask problems with an original performance. I know this, as I have done this on several occasions, and it also changes the articulation of some instruments.

Most of us know about the Mahler symphony recording [Barbirolli?] with the amended horn part - which might be considered a reasonable update, but in some cases it might be possible to reshape a recorded performance considerably, so that what we might hear would not be X's recording with Y orchestra in Z venue, but something rather different and decided by the sound engineers. I rather doubt that it would be possible to completely obliterate the artistic input of the original performers, and we may indeed prefer such a "new" version, but would it then be "authentic" in any way?

[smittims]

As your post suggests, Dave, this is a huge subject. I think the dynamic range inthe cutting of Lps was sometimes limited to what gramophones of the day could cope with. And then, when Mark-Obert Thorn remastered some Callas operas from clean copies of the original Columbia LPs, he found that the EMI CD, made from the mastertape, wasn't as good because that had deterioriated in the intervening years: just two examples.

As to the horn phrase in the Barbirolli Mahler 5, an argument against inserting it is that Barbirolli didn't conduct that bit! But at least it was recorded by the same player in the same room. I think that consideration may have prevented EMI from inserting two notes missing from Solomon's Beethoven A flat sonata op.110 because of an editing fault made after Solomon had to stop playing. At any rate it as interesting to see that a later reissue of the Barbirolli re-omitted the inserted horn phrase.

There's no question that improved technology can clean up the sound. I was very impressed by the difference between the 1986 and 2000 remasterings (both by EMI) of Beecham's Bizet Symphony. Almost as clear as my 1959 pressing of ALP1761!

[Bryn]

"As to the horn phrase in the Barbirolli Mahler 5, an argument against inserting it is that Barbirolli didn't conduct that bit!"

As far as I am aware, Berbirolli conducted that phrase on several occasions, here, live, for instance, but EMI failed to include it in their recording sessions for the initial release of the studio version immediately under discussion.

[HighlandDougie]

Bryn will be pleased to know that Qobuz appears to have stuck its digital toe in the water with 24/192 kHz releases of two of the Brahms Symphonies (2nd and, I may have got this wrong *as it was a very cursory look, 3rd). I presume more will be to follow.

* I did - it's the 4th plus the Tragic Overture

[Dave2002]

As your post suggests, Dave, this is a huge subject. I think the dynamic range inthe cutting of Lps was sometimes limited to what gramophones of the day could cope with. And then, when Mark-Obert Thorn remastered some Callas operas from clean copies of the original Columbia LPs, he found that the EMI CD, made from the mastertape, wasn't as good because that had deterioriated in the intervening years: just two examples.

As to the horn phrase in the Barbirolli Mahler 5, an argument against inserting it is that Barbirolli didn't conduct that bit! But at least it was recorded by the same player in the same room. I think that consideration may have prevented EMI from inserting two notes missing from Solomon's Beethoven A flat sonata op.110 because of an editing fault made after Solomon had to stop playing. At any rate it as interesting to see that a later reissue of the Barbirolli re-omitted the inserted horn phrase.

There's no question that improved technology can clean up the sound. I was very impressed by the difference between the 1986 and 2000 remasterings (both by EMI) of Beecham's Bizet Symphony. Almost as clear as my 1959 pressing of ALP1761!

Now you do have me concerned! I was unaware of a reissue which didn't include the extra horn phrase - this is a bit like renovating listed buildings. Sometimes one is not allowed to modify a building dating from (say) 1675, if there was a grotty extension put on in 1947. The heritage "police" may refuse to allow modifications which reset the state of the building back to as it was in (say) 1920 - with most of the original features [apart from some modest Victorian era modifications ...!!!] in order to keep its historic character. "No" - they say - it has to be redone to the standards of some arbitrary date - perhaps in the 1960s.

[Dave2002]

Looks like the "special" prices will be valid for a while - unless stocks run out. I am almost tempted - despite the quite high cost - and hopefully there'll be time to pick one up if I take the plunge.
Also note that there is another expected box later in the year, with vocal support - such as operas.

[Petrushka]

Looks like the "special" prices will be valid for a while - unless stocks run out. I am almost tempted - despite the quite high cost - and hopefully there'll be time to pick one up if I take the plunge.
Also note that there is another expected box later in the year, with vocal support - such as operas.

The second box - out in November - will include the Beethoven Missa Solemnis, Brahms Requiem, Bach St Matthew Passion, Handel's Messiah, Mozart Don G, M of Figaro, Magic Flute, Cosi, Wagner, Flying Dutchman, Act 1 Walkure, Beethoven Fidelio and anything else I might have overlooked.