Favourite Sibelius cycle

[pastoralguy]

Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but the Storgards set on Chandos doesnt include the Kullervo Symphony, though it does include "Three Late Fragments". It seems as though Sibelius is commonly thought to have composed seven symphonies and the Kullervo Symphony, as though the latter was somehow not a part of the set. Do any of the other sets mentioned include the Kullervo?

The Berglund set, I think, includes it but it's usually just 'the seven'. (Although I consider myself a great fan of Sibelius, I do find the Kullervo to be rather dull...)

I'm trying to think of how many Tchaikovsky sets also included the 'Manfred'.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

(Although I consider myself a great fan of Sibelius, I do find the Kullervo to be rather dull...)

Snap! (The LSOLIVE Colin Davis akso includes Kullervo - a good point to bear in mind.)

I'm trying to think of how many Tchaikovsky sets also included the 'Manfred'.

Rostropovich, Jarvi, Muti, Haitink ...

They should all do, of course: Manfred is a work of a composer at the height of his powers (rather than at the beginning of his career as is the case with Kullervo) and is as fine a work as anything he composed - and better than some of the numbered Symphonies.

[MrGongGong]

What, the great modernist and post modernist iconoclast de nos jours asking for a recommendation for not one but the complete symphonic opus of the arch reactionary composer of the 20th century? Has the world finally taken leave of its senses? Gong man, have you never read what Adorno had to say about the old fashioned Finn?

However, I can vouch for Blomstedt as both energetic and thoughtful, so should be right up your street.

I haven't told you what I want them for yet

I've read too much Adorno for one lifetime

BUT

Thanks folks for all your ideas and knowledge

[cloughie]

Rostropovich, Jarvi, Muti, Haitink ...

ferney also ... Maazel, Markevitch, Svetlanov, Jansons - I'm definitely a Manfred Man(n) - it's easily as good as 5 4 3 2 or 1!

If Colin Davis was the choice for Sibelius would it be Davis, Davis or Davis?

For modern recordings of the Sib Syms then Vanska probably wins but Barbirolli probably offers something different and an expansive approach to the Symphonies as does Bernstein.

[verismissimo]

Notcompletus, Notcompletus, Notcompletus.

I know, I know, I know.

But good anyway!

[Pianoman]

Manfred is a work of a composer at the height of his powers (rather than at the beginning of his career as is the case with Kullervo) and is as fine a work as anything he composed - and better than some of the numbered Symphonies.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely - it's one of my very favourite Tchaik pieces; in fact, just re-watching the 70s BBC 'Anna Karenina', which used Manfred as the title music (they seemed to use the classics a lot then) made me dig out my cds: Muti - blisteringly exciting and great sound but the episodic finale lets it down (slightly); Jansons, extremely persuasive, but I never did like the bathroom acoustic; Petrenko, a good all rounder, though pastoral movement a bit slow for me; Jurowski (LPO Live) maybe the best of all recent versions, goes for broke and simply makes the piece work from start to finish.

[amateur51]

Gong man, have you never read what Adorno had to say about the old fashioned Finn?

What has the arch-proponent of HS2 got to do with Sibelius

[Tony Halstead]

So we are after some recommendations for a complete set of Sibelius symphonies
we probably have most of them in various versions
but a complete cycle in all their moomin glory would be perfect

I thought there was a Salonen set (which would be my first choice) but alas not

so over to you CD anoraks

What does 'moomin glory' mean?

[MrGongGong]

What does 'moomin glory' mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tove_Jansson

[Roslynmuse]

Yes - five-string basses have been the norm for many decades in Europe, and, I had thought, Britain; I'm surprised the Philharmonia made such a fuss that they'd only so recently "caught up" - unless their point was that they were the first British orchestra to have an entire 5-string Bass section?

They can also be scordaturaly [is that a word?] tuned down a semitone to B - keeping the fourths tunings with the other four strings. IIRC, Strauss calls for this in Also Sprach and Schönberg in the Five Orchestral Pieces. It weakens an already weak sound, but beefs up the solo contrabassoon which would otherwise be the only instrument playing at such points.

All orchestral basses will play down to C, either by using an extension with levers on the E string, or with a 5th (C) string. So much of the orchestral repertoire requires notes lower than E that it would be impossible for a bass player to work professionally without one or the other. UK orchestras probably have more players using four string basses with extensions; European orchestras (especially German orchestras) tend to favour the five string bass. There's certainly less to go wrong with them (extensions are prone to mechanical problems). Basses are odd instruments in many ways - the very different German/French bow, for example, and the problem of orchestral v solo tuning that is the bane of many a bass student (and their accompanist)'s life...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - isn't the Bass much more closely "related" to the Viol ancestry than the other Stringed instruments? (The shape also suggests this.)

[Hornspieler]

Manfred is a work of a composer at the height of his powers (rather than at the beginning of his career as is the case with Kullervo) and is as fine a work as anything he composed - and better than some of the numbered Symphonies.

Absolutely - it's one of my very favourite Tchaik pieces; in fact, just re-watching the 70s BBC 'Anna Karenina', which used Manfred as the title music (they seemed to use the classics a lot then) made me dig out my cds: Muti - blisteringly exciting and great sound but the episodic finale lets it down (slightly); Jansons, extremely persuasive, but I never did like the bathroom acoustic; Petrenko, a good all rounder, though pastoral movement a bit slow for me; Jurowski (LPO Live) maybe the best of all recent versions, goes for broke and simply makes the piece work from start to finish.

I have never been a fan of these "Complete symphonies" sets.
a) They are usually not complete - how could you present the complete symphonies of Bruckner, for instance, in their different editions and arrangements? or b) Manfred, as mentioned above is a typical example of a symphony which is ignored because it has never been given a number and c) What about Mahler? Should Nº 10 be included in its various constructions? And should not das Lied be considered just as much a symphony as Numbers 2 and 3?

But my main reason for avoiding these sets is the old question of "Horses for Courses" and nothing illustrates this old saying more than the symphonies of Sibelius. Should Kullervo be included? In a set of the complete works of Sibelius, yes - but it is first and foremost a choral work.

Still, the best horses for the course vary from symphony to symphony.

For Nº 1, I would prefer Malcolm Sargent. Nº 2, Paavo Berglund (with the BSO). Nº 5, Alexander Gibson. Nº 7, John Barbirolli.
Your Yukka Pekkas and Vanskas can have the rest as far as I am concerned.

Why buy a set of seven or eight recordings from any Conductor/Orchestra outfit and then only really prefer 3 or 4 of them to other conductors' readings?

Gathering dust and taking up shelf space - not to mention that the ones you actually prefer and choose to listen to have actually cost you three times as much as if you had bought those as singles.

HS

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For Nº 1, I would prefer Malcolm Sargent. Nº 2, Paavo Berglund (with the BSO). Nº 5, Alexander Gibson. Nº 7, John Barbirolli.
Your Yukka Pekkas and Vanskas can have the rest as far as I am concerned.

Why buy a set of seven or eight recordings from any Conductor/Orchestra outfit and then only really prefer 3 or 4 of them to other conductors' readings?

Gathering dust and taking up shelf space - not to mention that the ones you actually prefer and choose to listen to have actually cost you three times as much as if you had bought those as singles.

HS

Not in today's market, HS - to get the Barbirolli Seventh on its own will cost you £23. His complete cycle can be yours for £9.28.
Berglund's Second with the BSO is unavailable - his complete cycle costs £8.21
Sargent's First is £6.39 and Gibson's Fifth (you don't specify which of his three recordings you recommend) £4.99.

So, your "three times cheaper" collection of three of the seven symphonies will set you back over £34. The price of complete Sibelius Symphonies (all seven/eight):

Maazel/VPO: £9.31
Barbirolli: £9.28
Ashkenasy: £7.25
Davis/LSO: £14.47
Blomsted: £11.65

... and Berglund/BSO, as mentioned, £9.31.

In other words, for your three discs, a customer can acquire three excellent sets of the complete numbered Symphonies.

(Only the Vanska at £35 would cost more. The Download at £6.99, however ... )

[kea]

At the second hand bookshop in America where I got the Davis & Boston Symphony set, it cost me $4. If the CDs had been in individual cases instead of Philips Duos it would have been $8. Pretty good savings eh

I'm still curious to hear any more detailed comments about interpretations if anyone cares to make them.

[Hornspieler]

Not in today's market, HS - to get the Barbirolli Seventh on its own will cost you £23. His complete cycle can be yours for £9.28.
Berglund's Second with the BSO is unavailable - his complete cycle costs £8.21
Sargent's First is £6.39 and Gibson's Fifth (you don't specify which of his three recordings you recommend) £4.99.

So, your "three times cheaper" collection of three of the seven symphonies will set you back over £34. The price of complete Sibelius Symphonies (all seven/eight):

Maazel/VPO: £9.31
Barbirolli: £9.28
Ashkenasy: £7.25
Davis/LSO: £14.47
Blomsted: £11.65

... and Berglund/BSO, as mentioned, £9.31.

In other words, for your three discs, a customer can acquire three excellent sets of the complete numbered Symphonies.

(Only the Vanska at £35 would cost more. The Download at £6.99, however ... )

A very good argument, well put, FHG - but if you already have those favourite interpretations as singles why buy a set containing other conductors' readings of your favourite symphonies?

Although in this instance, I have cited Sibelius as an example, surely the argument must apply to full sets of any composer's symphonic output - or total range of orchestral work for that matter.

How much shelf space has the average record collector got?

HS