Bruckner Symphony No 4 - original version

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  • Barbirollians
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 11686
    #1

    Bruckner Symphony No 4 - original version

    A rave review in Gramophone this month from RO for FX Roth’s new recording of the original version of the Fourth . Topping he suggests thr previous standard bearers of Inbal and Norrington .

    It’s not a Bruckner version issue I have particularly noted before . Any views here on whether one ought to know it ?
    Tags: None
  • RichardB
    Banned
    • Nov 2021
    • 2170
    #2
    Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
    Any views here on whether one ought to know it ?
    The sound of rending metal you can hear is that of a SuperSized can of worms being opened...

    I don't know this version, apparently it wasn't performed until the 1970s. But of F-X Roth reckons it's worth hearing then I imagine it is. Thanks for the mention of it, it had passed me by on its release, mainly because the 4th isn't a Bruckner symphony I listen to very often, and I assumed this was just another one.

    Comment

    • Ein Heldenleben
      Full Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 6781
      #3
      Originally posted by RichardB View Post
      The sound of rending metal you can hear is that of a SuperSized can of worms being opened...

      I don't know this version, apparently it wasn't performed until the 1970s. But of F-X Roth reckons it's worth hearing then I imagine it is. Thanks for the mention of it, it had passed me by on its release, mainly because the 4th isn't a Bruckner symphony I listen to very often, and I assumed this was just another one.
      Yes please keep the worms in the tin perhaps by reading the excellent Wiki summary of the different versions and their advocates.

      Comment

      • Barbirollians
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 11686
        #4
        Why ? I would rather hear what forumites think ?

        Comment

        • Ein Heldenleben
          Full Member
          • Apr 2014
          • 6781
          #5
          Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
          Why ? I would rather hear what forumites think ?
          Well for a start if a comparison with other recorded versions of the symphony is sought this is the nature of the task . From the excellent wiki entry. It’s about a weeks work ?

          “The first commercial recording of part of the symphony was of the scherzo from the 1888 version, made by Clemens Krauss with the Vienna Philharmonic in 1929. The first commercial recording of the entire symphony was made by Karl Böhm with the Staatskapelle Dresden in 1936, in the Haas/1881 version.

          The versions most often recorded are the Haas and Nowak editions of the 1880 score (referred to as the 1881 and 1886 versions in the list above). Any modern recording that does not specify this can be safely assumed to be one of these versions, while early LPs and CD remasterings of old recordings are usually of Ferdinand Löwe's 1888 edition (for example, those by Wilhelm Furtwängler and Hans Knappertsbusch).

          The first recording of the original 1874 version was by Kurt Wöss with the Munich Philharmonic – a live performance on 20 September 1975. The first studio recording of the 1874 version was by Eliahu Inbal with the Frankfurt Radio Symphony.

          The first recording of the 1878 version was by Warren Cohen with the MusicaNova Orchestra – a live performance on 1 May 2022.[11]

          First version (1874–1876)[edit]
          Nowak edition (1975), based on the 1874 manuscript[edit]
          Kurt Wöss conducting the Munich Philharmonic, live performance, 1975 (Bruckner Haus Linz LP 2/12430-315) (premiere of this version).
          Eliahu Inbal conducting the Frankfurt Radio Symphony, studio recording, 1982 (Teldec) (first commercial recording of this version)
          Chitaru Asahina conducting the Tokyo Metropolitan Symphony Orchestra, live performance, 1982 (JVC)
          Dennis Russell Davies conducting the Bruckner Orchestra Linz, live performance, 2003 (Arte Nova)
          Kent Nagano conducting the Bavarian State Orchestra, studio recording, 2007 (Sony)
          Roger Norrington conducting the Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra, live performance, 2007 (Hänssler)
          Simone Young conducting the Hamburg Philharmonic, live performance, 2007 (Oehms)
          Gerd Schaller conducting the Philharmonie Festiva, live performance, 2021 (Profil Günter Hänssler, PH 22010)

          **Francois-Xavier Roth conducting the Gürzenich Orchestra Cologne, live performance, 2022 (Myrios Classics)**

          Korstvedt edition (2021), based on the 1876 revision[edit]
          Jakub Hrůša conducting the Bamberger Symphoniker, Bruckner 4 – The three versions – Accentus music CD Set ACC 30533, 2020

          Markus Poschner conducting the ORF Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra, Bruckner Symphony No. 4 – 1876 version – Capriccio C8084, 2022

          Version 2A (1878)[edit]
          Korstvedt edition (2022)[edit]
          Warren Cohen conducting the MusicaNova Orchestra, 1 May 2022 – MusicaNova BD/DVD/CD (Premiere of the complete 1878 version)

          "Volksfest" finale only[edit]
          Gennady Rozhdestvensky conducting the USSR Ministry of Culture Orchestra, studio recording, 1987 (Melodiya) (First recording of this movement)
          Uwe-Christian Harrer with the Leondinger Symphony Orchestra, Kultur CD SW010053-2, live 1996
          Georg Tintner, Royal Scottish National Orchestra, studio recording, 1998 (Naxos)
          Gerd Schaller conducting the Philharmonie Festiva, Profil PH13049, live 2014
          Jakub Hrůša conducting the Bamberger Symphoniker, Bruckner 4 – The three versions – Accentus music CD Set ACC 30533, 2020
          Markus Poschner conducting the Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra – Capriccio LC08748, 2022

          Andante and "Volksfest" finale[edit]
          Simon Rattle conducting the London Symphonic Orchestra, Bruckner – Symphony No. 4 – LSO Live LSO085, 2022

          Version 2B (1881–1886)[edit]
          Haas edition (1936, rev. 1944), based on the 1881 manuscript[edit]
          Karl Böhm conducting the Staatskapelle Dresden, studio recording for HMV, 1936 (First recording of the complete symphony)
          Otto Klemperer conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, live performance, 1947 (Tahra)
          Eduard van Beinum conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, live performance, 1952 (Audiophile)
          Bruno Walter conducting the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, studio recording, 1960 (Sony/CBS)
          Bernard Haitink conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, studio recording, 1965 (Philips)
          Herbert von Karajan conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, studio recording, 1970 (EMI)
          Karl Richter conducting the West Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra, live performance, 1977 (Altus)
          Bernard Haitink conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, studio recording, 1985 (Philips)
          Sergiu Celibidache conducting the Munich Philharmonic, live performance, 1993 (EMI)
          Georg Tintner conducting the Royal Scottish National Orchestra, studio recording, 1996 (Naxos)
          Günter Wand conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, live performance, 1998 (BMG/RCA)
          Yannick Nézet-Séguin conducting the Orchestre Métropolitain, 2011 (ATMA Classique)

          Nowak edition (1953), based on the 1886 manuscript[edit]
          Eugen Jochum conducting the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, studio recording, 1955 (Deutsche Grammophon) (first commercial recording of this edition)
          Otto Klemperer conducting the Philharmonia Orchestra, studio recording, 1963 (EMI)
          Eugen Jochum conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, studio recording, 1965 (Deutsche Grammophon)
          Sergiu Celibidache conducting the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra, live performance, 1969 (Deutsche Grammophon)
          Karl Böhm conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, studio recording, 1973 (Decca/London)
          Eugen Jochum conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, live performance, 1975 (Altus)
          Georg Solti conducting the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, studio recording, 1981 (London)
          Riccardo Muti conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, studio recording, 1985 (EMI)
          Giuseppe Sinopoli conducting the Staatskapelle Dresden, studio recording, 1987 (Deutsche Grammophon)*
          Riccardo Chailly conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, studio recording, 1989 (Decca)
          Nikolaus Harnoncourt conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, studio recording, 1997 (Teldec)
          Stanisław Skrowaczewski conducting the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony Orchestra, studio recording, 1998 (Arte Nova/Oehms Classics)
          Philippe Herreweghe conducting the Orchestre des Champs-Élysées, studio recording, 2006 (Harmonia Mundi)
          Simon Rattle conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, concert performance, 2006 (EMI)
          Mariss Jansons conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, concert performance, 2008 (RCO Live)
          Bernard Haitink conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, concert performance, 2011 (LSO live)

          Korstvedt edition (2018), based on the 1881 manuscript[edit]
          Jakub Hrůša conducting the Bamberger Symphoniker, Bruckner 4 – The three versions – Accentus music CD Set ACC 30533, 2020
          Markus Poschner conducting the Bruckner Orchestra Linz, Anton Bruckner – Sinfonie Nr. 4 Es-Dur (1878-1880) "Romantische" – Capriccio C8084, 2022

          Cohrs edition (2021), based on the 1881 manuscript[edit]
          Simon Rattle conducting the London Symphonic Orchestra, Bruckner – Symphony No. 4 – LSO Live LSO085, 2022

          Third version (1888)[edit]
          First edition (Gutmann, 1889)[edit]
          Clemens Krauss conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, studio recording, 1929 (scherzo only). Earliest recording of any part of the symphony
          Bruno Walter conducting the NBC Symphony Orchestra, live performance, 1940 (oldest surviving complete recording of this edition)
          Wilhelm Furtwängler conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, live performance, Stuttgart, 1951 (multiple labels)
          Wilhelm Furtwängler conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, live performance, Munich, 1951 (multiple labels)
          Mahler reorchestration (1895)[edit]
          Gennady Rozhdestvensky conducting the USSR Ministry of Culture Orchestra, 1984 (Melodyia) – Andante and Finale heavily cut
          Anton Nanut conducting the Ljubljana Radio Symphony Orchestra

          Korstvedt critical edition (2004)[edit]
          Akira Naito conducting the Tokyo New City Orchestra, 2005 (Delta Classics) (first recording of this edition)
          Osmo Vänskä conducting the Minnesota Orchestra, 2010 (BIS Records)
          Franz Welser-Möst conducting the Cleveland Orchestra, 2012 (Dirigent)
          Jakub Hrůša conducting the Bamberger Symphoniker, Bruckner 4 – The three versions – Accentus music CD Set ACC 30533, 2020

          Comment

          • Gargoyle
            Full Member
            • Dec 2022
            • 71
            #6
            Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
            Well for a start if a comparison with other recorded versions of the symphony is sought this is the nature of the task . From the excellent wiki entry. It’s about a weeks work ?

            “The first commercial recording of part of the symphony was of the scherzo from the 1888 version, made by Clemens Krauss with the Vienna Philharmonic in 1929. The first commercial recording of the entire symphony was made by Karl Böhm with the Staatskapelle Dresden in 1936, in the Haas/1881 version.

            The versions most often recorded are the Haas and Nowak editions of the 1880 score (referred to as the 1881 and 1886 versions in the list above). Any modern recording that does not specify this can be safely assumed to be one of these versions, while early LPs and CD remasterings of old recordings are usually of Ferdinand Löwe's 1888 edition (for example, those by Wilhelm Furtwängler and Hans Knappertsbusch).

            The first recording of the original 1874 version was by Kurt Wöss with the Munich Philharmonic – a live performance on 20 September 1975. The first studio recording of the 1874 version was by Eliahu Inbal with the Frankfurt Radio Symphony.

            The first recording of the 1878 version was by Warren Cohen with the MusicaNova Orchestra – a live performance on 1 May 2022.[11]

            First version (1874–1876)[edit]
            Nowak edition (1975), based on the 1874 manuscript[edit]
            Kurt Wöss conducting the Munich Philharmonic, live performance, 1975 (Bruckner Haus Linz LP 2/12430-315) (premiere of this version).
            Eliahu Inbal conducting the Frankfurt Radio Symphony, studio recording, 1982 (Teldec) (first commercial recording of this version)
            Chitaru Asahina conducting the Tokyo Metropolitan Symphony Orchestra, live performance, 1982 (JVC)
            Dennis Russell Davies conducting the Bruckner Orchestra Linz, live performance, 2003 (Arte Nova)
            Kent Nagano conducting the Bavarian State Orchestra, studio recording, 2007 (Sony)
            Roger Norrington conducting the Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra, live performance, 2007 (Hänssler)
            Simone Young conducting the Hamburg Philharmonic, live performance, 2007 (Oehms)
            Gerd Schaller conducting the Philharmonie Festiva, live performance, 2021 (Profil Günter Hänssler, PH 22010)

            **Francois-Xavier Roth conducting the Gürzenich Orchestra Cologne, live performance, 2022 (Myrios Classics)**

            Korstvedt edition (2021), based on the 1876 revision[edit]
            Jakub Hrůša conducting the Bamberger Symphoniker, Bruckner 4 – The three versions – Accentus music CD Set ACC 30533, 2020

            Markus Poschner conducting the ORF Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra, Bruckner Symphony No. 4 – 1876 version – Capriccio C8084, 2022

            Version 2A (1878)[edit]
            Korstvedt edition (2022)[edit]
            Warren Cohen conducting the MusicaNova Orchestra, 1 May 2022 – MusicaNova BD/DVD/CD (Premiere of the complete 1878 version)

            "Volksfest" finale only[edit]
            Gennady Rozhdestvensky conducting the USSR Ministry of Culture Orchestra, studio recording, 1987 (Melodiya) (First recording of this movement)
            Uwe-Christian Harrer with the Leondinger Symphony Orchestra, Kultur CD SW010053-2, live 1996
            Georg Tintner, Royal Scottish National Orchestra, studio recording, 1998 (Naxos)
            Gerd Schaller conducting the Philharmonie Festiva, Profil PH13049, live 2014
            Jakub Hrůša conducting the Bamberger Symphoniker, Bruckner 4 – The three versions – Accentus music CD Set ACC 30533, 2020
            Markus Poschner conducting the Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra – Capriccio LC08748, 2022

            Andante and "Volksfest" finale[edit]
            Simon Rattle conducting the London Symphonic Orchestra, Bruckner – Symphony No. 4 – LSO Live LSO085, 2022

            Version 2B (1881–1886)[edit]
            Haas edition (1936, rev. 1944), based on the 1881 manuscript[edit]
            Karl Böhm conducting the Staatskapelle Dresden, studio recording for HMV, 1936 (First recording of the complete symphony)
            Otto Klemperer conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, live performance, 1947 (Tahra)
            Eduard van Beinum conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, live performance, 1952 (Audiophile)
            Bruno Walter conducting the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, studio recording, 1960 (Sony/CBS)
            Bernard Haitink conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, studio recording, 1965 (Philips)
            Herbert von Karajan conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, studio recording, 1970 (EMI)
            Karl Richter conducting the West Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra, live performance, 1977 (Altus)
            Bernard Haitink conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, studio recording, 1985 (Philips)
            Sergiu Celibidache conducting the Munich Philharmonic, live performance, 1993 (EMI)
            Georg Tintner conducting the Royal Scottish National Orchestra, studio recording, 1996 (Naxos)
            Günter Wand conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, live performance, 1998 (BMG/RCA)
            Yannick Nézet-Séguin conducting the Orchestre Métropolitain, 2011 (ATMA Classique)

            Nowak edition (1953), based on the 1886 manuscript[edit]
            Eugen Jochum conducting the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, studio recording, 1955 (Deutsche Grammophon) (first commercial recording of this edition)
            Otto Klemperer conducting the Philharmonia Orchestra, studio recording, 1963 (EMI)
            Eugen Jochum conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, studio recording, 1965 (Deutsche Grammophon)
            Sergiu Celibidache conducting the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra, live performance, 1969 (Deutsche Grammophon)
            Karl Böhm conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, studio recording, 1973 (Decca/London)
            Eugen Jochum conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, live performance, 1975 (Altus)
            Georg Solti conducting the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, studio recording, 1981 (London)
            Riccardo Muti conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, studio recording, 1985 (EMI)
            Giuseppe Sinopoli conducting the Staatskapelle Dresden, studio recording, 1987 (Deutsche Grammophon)*
            Riccardo Chailly conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, studio recording, 1989 (Decca)
            Nikolaus Harnoncourt conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, studio recording, 1997 (Teldec)
            Stanisław Skrowaczewski conducting the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony Orchestra, studio recording, 1998 (Arte Nova/Oehms Classics)
            Philippe Herreweghe conducting the Orchestre des Champs-Élysées, studio recording, 2006 (Harmonia Mundi)
            Simon Rattle conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, concert performance, 2006 (EMI)
            Mariss Jansons conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra, concert performance, 2008 (RCO Live)
            Bernard Haitink conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, concert performance, 2011 (LSO live)

            Korstvedt edition (2018), based on the 1881 manuscript[edit]
            Jakub Hrůša conducting the Bamberger Symphoniker, Bruckner 4 – The three versions – Accentus music CD Set ACC 30533, 2020
            Markus Poschner conducting the Bruckner Orchestra Linz, Anton Bruckner – Sinfonie Nr. 4 Es-Dur (1878-1880) "Romantische" – Capriccio C8084, 2022

            Cohrs edition (2021), based on the 1881 manuscript[edit]
            Simon Rattle conducting the London Symphonic Orchestra, Bruckner – Symphony No. 4 – LSO Live LSO085, 2022

            Third version (1888)[edit]
            First edition (Gutmann, 1889)[edit]
            Clemens Krauss conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, studio recording, 1929 (scherzo only). Earliest recording of any part of the symphony
            Bruno Walter conducting the NBC Symphony Orchestra, live performance, 1940 (oldest surviving complete recording of this edition)
            Wilhelm Furtwängler conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, live performance, Stuttgart, 1951 (multiple labels)
            Wilhelm Furtwängler conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, live performance, Munich, 1951 (multiple labels)
            Mahler reorchestration (1895)[edit]
            Gennady Rozhdestvensky conducting the USSR Ministry of Culture Orchestra, 1984 (Melodyia) – Andante and Finale heavily cut
            Anton Nanut conducting the Ljubljana Radio Symphony Orchestra

            Korstvedt critical edition (2004)[edit]
            Akira Naito conducting the Tokyo New City Orchestra, 2005 (Delta Classics) (first recording of this edition)
            Osmo Vänskä conducting the Minnesota Orchestra, 2010 (BIS Records)
            Franz Welser-Möst conducting the Cleveland Orchestra, 2012 (Dirigent)
            Jakub Hrůša conducting the Bamberger Symphoniker, Bruckner 4 – The three versions – Accentus music CD Set ACC 30533, 2020


            and we await further contributions rom those well-versed editions-wise. i must say this all a bit beyond me. but I love Bruckner's 4th ......
            Last edited by Gargoyle; 20-04-23, 10:13.

            Comment

            • goldnet
              Full Member
              • May 2017
              • 6
              #7
              I listened to it last week.

              It's a superbly played and recorded performance.

              I have heard this original version previously - it isn't slightly different from the familiar edition, however; more a completely different symphony (I am mentally re-numbering it No 3.5!).

              Impossible to say whether or not I prefer it to the familiar version (and one can see/hear Roth's performance of this with the LSO) simply because I am unfamiliar with it but have known the other version for over 50 years.

              Definitely worth a listen (as is almost everything Roth records) and we are probably going to have a full set from Roth in Cologne within a couple of years. 6th is being played (as well as streamed and almost certainly recorded) next month, 8th comes along in December.

              Comment

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