Bruckner 4 LSO/Rattle

[jayne lee wilson]

The LSO Live LSO/Rattle recording of Bruckner 4, in the latest Cohrs edition of the 1878 - 1881, which I bought on release, is indeed a great one, and quite an advance in its subtlety of expression, musical flow and tonal range upon Rattle’s earlier Berlin reading, which always sounded acoustically compromised. This new release is certainly the most mature, fully realised Bruckner we’ve had from him.


This is not of course the first release to included several versions or variants. As recently as 2021, Jakob Hrusa and the Bamberg SO released “The Three Versions”, which goes further and includes flowing, warmly-toned and recorded complete accounts of the 4ths of 1874, 1878-81 and the first published edition of 1888. This last edition is important as it is the one that the work became known by, used by Knappertsbusch and Furtwangler (even after the issue of the Haas edition of 1878-81) if sometimes with, in Furtwangler’s case, his own adjustments. There is another very good version of 1888 (ed Korstvedt with detailed notes) by Osmo Vanska on BIS.
Disc 2 on the Rattle release contains music all Brucknerians should know, as the original scherzo is a compellingly mysterious and dramatic piece, much darker than its replacement, and unlike anything else in Bruckner; for me it relates closely to the musical daring and adventure he showed in the extraordinarily original 1872 2nd and 1873/4 3rd. I’ve always been surprised at Simpson’s brusque dismissal of it.
The “Volksfest” 4th finale, a structurally simpler, lighter conception of the work at that point (1878, may well broaden your understanding of the very complex and challenging finale structure in later versions. The longer 1878 andante is also very beautifully performed, one of the set’s highlights.

*****

I was disappointed with some aspects of Osborne’s review, especially his condescending and dated comments about a type of listener he calls “the general collector”, advising them, or us, to “forget editions”. Scholars like Korstvedt, Cohrs and Carragan have worked for years to produce authoritative editions of the Bruckner Symphony versions (and endlessly helpful commentaries upon them), all of which have since been recorded by many conductors, and are there to enjoy, in the listening; they are absolutely not some abstract textual study; and go far beyond the concept of “work-in-progress”. The 1874 4th, for example, can be a very exciting experience if you take a little trouble to get to know it as a symphony sufficient unto itself.

If you love Bruckner, why wouldn’t you relish having more Bruckner to love? If you know 1878-81 well, hearing those familiar themes in so many differently detailed contrapuntal, structural and orchestrated contexts is a pleasure in itself. But if you want to take things further you can read the essay in William Carragan’s recent and magisterial ”Anton Bruckner: Eleven Symphonies”, the so-called “Red Book”, (admittedly an expensive import-only) which has an excellent, highly detailed and exemplified piece on the 4th and its evolution. Of course, there are also several concise and very helpful summaries of the Bruckner Versions’ chronology and evolution online.

[Keraulophone]

On a completely different note I have been rather blown away by Blomstedts 1980s Bruckner 4 and 7 on Denon I picked up secondhand recently after the wonderful RFH concert this summer.

I was immediately taken with these recordings from the earliest year or two of the CD format. Apart from Blomstedt's natural, uninflated way with these scores, the cultured playing of this vererable orchestra (from the then DDR) suits the music perfectly IMO. “A blend of eloquence and electricity, deduced from within rather than applied from without” wrote Richard Osborne of the Seventh in Gramophone, while being less generous about Blomstedt's recording in Leipzig 25 years later. The same team went on to delight us with half a dozen tone poems of Richard Strauss which remain favourite recordings after nearly 40 years.
.

[ahinton]

The LSO Live LSO/Rattle recording of Bruckner 4, in the latest Cohrs edition of the 1878 - 1881, which I bought on release, is indeed a great one, and quite an advance in its subtlety of expression, musical flow and tonal range upon Rattle’s earlier Berlin reading, which always sounded acoustically compromised. This new release is certainly the most mature, fully realised Bruckner we’ve had from him.


This is not of course the first release to included several versions or variants. As recently as 2021, Jakob Hrusa and the Bamberg SO released “The Three Versions”, which goes further and includes flowing, warmly-toned and recorded complete accounts of the 4ths of 1874, 1878-81 and the first published edition of 1888. This last edition is important as it is the one that the work became known by, used by Knappertsbusch and Furtwangler (even after the issue of the Haas edition of 1878-81) if sometimes with, in Furtwangler’s case, his own adjustments. There is another very good version of 1888 (ed Korstvedt with detailed notes) by Osmo Vanska on BIS.
Disc 2 on the Rattle release contains music all Brucknerians should know, as the original scherzo is a compellingly mysterious and dramatic piece, much darker than its replacement, and unlike anything else in Bruckner; for me it relates closely to the musical daring and adventure he showed in the extraordinarily original 1872 2nd and 1873/4 3rd. I’ve always been surprised at Simpson’s brusque dismissal of it.
The “Volksfest” 4th finale, a structurally simpler, lighter conception of the work at that point (1878, may well broaden your understanding of the very complex and challenging finale structure in later versions. The longer 1878 andante is also very beautifully performed, one of the set’s highlights.

*****

I was disappointed with some aspects of Osborne’s review, especially his condescending and dated comments about a type of listener he calls “the general collector”, advising them, or us, to “forget editions”. Scholars like Korstvedt, Cohrs and Carragan have worked for years to produce authoritative editions of the Bruckner Symphony versions (and endlessly helpful commentaries upon them), all of which have since been recorded by many conductors, and are there to enjoy, in the listening; they are absolutely not some abstract textual study; and go far beyond the concept of “work-in-progress”. The 1874 4th, for example, can be a very exciting experience if you take a little trouble to get to know it as a symphony sufficient unto itself.

If you love Bruckner, why wouldn’t you relish having more Bruckner to love? If you know 1878-81 well, hearing those familiar themes in so many differently detailed contrapuntal, structural and orchestrated contexts is a pleasure in itself. But if you want to take things further you can read the essay in William Carragan’s recent and magisterial ”Anton Bruckner: Eleven Symphonies”, the so-called “Red Book”, (admittedly an expensive import-only) which has an excellent, highly detailed and exemplified piece on the 4th and its evolution. Of course, there are also several concise and very helpful summaries of the Bruckner Versions’ chronology and evolution online.

Good to read your thoughts again here - especially on Bruckner on whom you have written so much of interest on this forum! Yes, the versions various issue is indeed problematic, largely because the composer all too often allowed himself to be influenced by the views of others as to how his music should go and how best it should be presented - and it's for this reason that there is and remains a dire need for reliably well-researched scholarly information detailing the history of all of those symphonies. And all of this before one even begins to confront the problems attaching to the finale of the Ninth which, had it not been for the composer spending time going over earlier works at others' persuasion, would likely have been completed in his own hand...

[Historian]

Good to read your thoughts again here - especially on Bruckner on whom you have written so much of interest on this forum! Yes, the versions various issue is indeed problematic, largely because the composer all too often allowed himself to be influenced by the views of others as to how his music should go and how best it should be presented - and it's for this reason that there is and remains a dire need for reliably well-researched scholarly information detailing the history of all of those symphonies. And all of this before one even begins to confront the problems attaching to the finale of the Ninth which, had it not been for the composer spending time going over earlier works at others' persuasion, would likely have been completed in his own hand...

Seconded: I learn so much from this forum. Thank you to all the contributors to this very enlightening thread.

[silvestrione]

Good to read your thoughts again here - especially on Bruckner on whom you have written so much of interest on this forum! Yes, the versions various issue is indeed problematic, largely because the composer all too often allowed himself to be influenced by the views of others as to how his music should go and how best it should be presented - and it's for this reason that there is and remains a dire need for reliably well-researched scholarly information detailing the history of all of those symphonies. And all of this before one even begins to confront the problems attaching to the finale of the Ninth which, had it not been for the composer spending time going over earlier works at others' persuasion, would likely have been completed in his own hand...

Further seconded (Or is that, thirded?)! Great to have JLW's thoughts on Bruckner again, and I realise I should take more interest in the second CD.

[Master Jacques]

I wonder whether the single customer review on amazon.co.uk (a mere 3 stars) was influenced by Hurwitz's predictable disdain.

This customer review (from "Philoctetes Unstrung") is very well written and argued, from someone with evident expertise, all of which places it light years away from the average Hurwitz effusion. I found it useful, as the "songs" and lack of any notes on streaming platforms leave us in the dark as what we might be listening to, as far as the second disc scraps are concerned. Like you, I'll give this a streamed listen at some point, without great expectations.

[Parry1912]

I found it useful, as the "songs" and lack of any notes on streaming platforms leave us in the dark as what we might be listening to, as far as the second disc scraps are concerned.

The discography on abruckner.com might be useful here.

[Cockney Sparrow]

This customer review (from "Philoctetes Unstrung") is very well written and argued, from someone with evident expertise, all of which places it light years away from the average Hurwitz effusion. I found it useful, as the "songs" and lack of any notes on streaming platforms leave us in the dark as what we might be listening to, as far as the second disc scraps are concerned. Like you, I'll give this a streamed listen at some point, without great expectations.

PDF available here:

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/LS%200875

[Bryn]

PDF available here:

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/LS%200875

Specifically here: https://www.chandos.net/chanimages/Booklets/LS0875.pdf

As to Master Jacques finding the Philoctetes Unstrung review "very well written and argued, from someone with evident expertise", sorry, I find not a scintilla of evidence to support that view. The booklet notes by Cohrs, Johnson, and Hopkins, I find to be far better written and very much more illuminating.

[jayne lee wilson]

Good to read your thoughts again here - especially on Bruckner on whom you have written so much of interest on this forum! Yes, the versions various issue is indeed problematic, largely because the composer all too often allowed himself to be influenced by the views of others as to how his music should go and how best it should be presented - and it's for this reason that there is and remains a dire need for reliably well-researched scholarly information detailing the history of all of those symphonies. And all of this before one even begins to confront the problems attaching to the finale of the Ninth which, had it not been for the composer spending time going over earlier works at others' persuasion, would likely have been completed in his own hand...

This is the William Carragan book I mentioned above which deals with that very problem, symphony by symphony, of editions and their evolution:

https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/books-about-bruckner-in-english/carragan-william-anton-bruckner-eleven-symphonies/

Very extensive musical quotation and descriptions, with the slight oddity of QR codes through out the text leading to repayable excerpts.

Also the excellent Dermot Gault, perhaps a better choice if you prefer not to have extensive musical examples, and would enjoy more of the (very detailed) historical/biographical background as to how and why they developed, especially regarding which friends and musicians were the most influential upon Bruckner himself:

https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/dermotgaultsbookth/

Prices....not cheap....the Gault is rather more than it cost me these days.....

[jayne lee wilson]

Good to read your thoughts again here - especially on Bruckner on whom you have written so much of interest on this forum! Yes, the versions various issue is indeed problematic, largely because the composer all too often allowed himself to be influenced by the views of others as to how his music should go and how best it should be presented - and it's for this reason that there is and remains a dire need for reliably well-researched scholarly information detailing the history of all of those symphonies. And all of this before one even begins to confront the problems attaching to the finale of the Ninth which, had it not been for the composer spending time going over earlier works at others' persuasion, would likely have been completed in his own hand...

There is also the much simpler, concise summary of the versions by David Griegel:

https://bruckner.webs.com/versions.html

Note that the superb 1873 3rd, the original, mentioned in the Griegel text as published by Nowak in 1977, has been recorded several times by such as Blomstedt, Dausgaard, Simone Young, and most recently Poschner, in a highly dramatic swift ORF reading on Capprico. Many who get to know it soon feel it is easily the finest of the three main editions (as Simpson was among the first to recognise). It certainly makes the most sense musically and structurally.

Bruckner bequeathed his original scores to the Vienna National Library; so it does appear that he valued them very much, and didn't see them as transitional or or works-in-progress toward some "ideal", at least not consistently. There were many other creative pressures upon him. Which much other evidence would confirm.

[mathias broucek]

The one puzzling thing is why the "abridged" finale is on disc 1. I play music digitally so I've reordered my files so the "standard" finale comes first

[Bryn]

The one puzzling thing is why the "abridged" finale is on disc 1. I play music digitally so I've reordered my files so the "standard" finale comes first

Surely the abridged finale was Bruckner's final choice? That said, I too have copied the relevant movements (in 2-channel stereo) to a new folder to create a full version with the extended finale. Not so conveniently done if one wants to listen to the extended version in surround sound from the SACDs.

[cloughie]

Surely the abridged finale was Bruckner's final choice? That said, I too have copied the relevant movements (in 2-channel stereo) to a new folder to create a full version with the extended finale. Not so conveniently done if one wants to listen to the extended version in surround sound from the SACDs.

A bit like going back to vinyl and switching discs - seems CDs, downloading and streaming has made us more lazy!

[Master Jacques]

Specifically here: https://www.chandos.net/chanimages/Booklets/LS0875.pdf

As to Master Jacques finding the Philoctetes Unstrung review "very well written and argued, from someone with evident expertise", sorry, I find not a scintilla of evidence to support that view. The booklet notes by Cohrs, Johnson, and Hopkins, I find to be far better written and very much more illuminating.

Thank you Bryn, it's good to have those proper explanatory notes as to what we're hearing.