Bruckner 4 LSO/Rattle

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  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    #31
    Korstvedt’s note to the 1888 recording by Vanska is vital reading:


    Note the comment about the numerous new tempo and expression marks Bruckner introduced at this stage. His letters to various conductors involved in premieres and other performances include comments such as “many important tempo changes are not marked in the score”. He wanted to trust the performers to use their musical instincts for such expressions, but finally felt he had to introduce some of them explicitly into his text for the first published edition. Recordings by Knappertsbusch, Volkmar Andreae, Furtwängler and others exemplify this very flexible approach in their own various subjective interpretations of it. (Which often vary considerably within their own catalogues).

    So what has become known as the “one basic tempo” interpretational approach, where recordings are praised for their narrow range of derived or related tempi, especially prevalent in conductors of the earlier stereo era (and commentators such as Cooke and Osborne), working from editions like Haas and Nowak with far fewer such markings, is not something Bruckner wanted at all. It can still be seen as an interpretive choice of course, but the need for a natural, flexible flow to the musical line becomes vital - as Rattle manages very well.
    Last edited by Eine Alpensinfonie; 15-11-22, 23:06.

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    • Goon525
      Full Member
      • Feb 2014
      • 597

      #32
      I’ve only just spotted this thread, and would like to add my ‘welcome back’ to JLW whose contributions have been sadly missed for too long a time. (I tried to tell her so by PM, but she still has these switched off.) I concur with the general welcome for the new Rattle, with a slight caveat about the sound (RO has never been the best judge of sound quality, for all his other merits.) If you look at the session photo in Gramophone, you’ll see that the brass and horns are positioned high up on balconies at extreme left and right. As that would probably sound daft in a recording, they’ve been artificially repositioned across the soundstage, but I’m not quite convinced by how it’s been done. Also, the recording captures Rattle’s ppp and pppps superbly, but I don’t feel it expands quite so well into the loudest moments. Minor reservations though, it’s a terrific performance.

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      • jayne lee wilson
        Banned
        • Jul 2011
        • 10711

        #33
        Originally posted by Goon525 View Post
        I’ve only just spotted this thread, and would like to add my ‘welcome back’ to JLW whose contributions have been sadly missed for too long a time. (I tried to tell her so by PM, but she still has these switched off.) I concur with the general welcome for the new Rattle, with a slight caveat about the sound (RO has never been the best judge of sound quality, for all his other merits.) If you look at the session photo in Gramophone, you’ll see that the brass and horns are positioned high up on balconies at extreme left and right. As that would probably sound daft in a recording, they’ve been artificially repositioned across the soundstage, but I’m not quite convinced by how it’s been done. Also, the recording captures Rattle’s ppp and pppps superbly, but I don’t feel it expands quite so well into the loudest moments. Minor reservations though, it’s a terrific performance.
        NB.....I didn't switch off PMs, this appears to be beyond my control..... perhaps The Hosts could check it out, please.....

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        • BBMmk2
          Late Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 20908

          #34
          Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
          NB.....I didn't switch off PMs, this appears to be beyond my control..... perhaps The Hosts could check it out, please.....
          Great to see you again, JLW!
          Don’t cry for me
          I go where music was born

          J S Bach 1685-1750

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          • gurnemanz
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 7381

            #35
            Originally posted by BBMmk2 View Post
            Great to see you again, JLW!

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            • JasonPalmer
              Full Member
              • Dec 2022
              • 826

              #36
              Enjoying the 4th now from a budget collection I got from amazon when it was £10, now it selling for £24.



              Due to my autism I may listen to it again and again, you notice new things each time. I have several recordings of the 7th symphony but only this one of the 4th. Will keep an eye out for other recordings, this has been a very interesting thread to read. Nice to see some people very nerdy about bruckner and read all about him. Had heard different versions of the scores exist.
              Annoyingly listening to and commenting on radio 3...

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              • JasonPalmer
                Full Member
                • Dec 2022
                • 826

                #37
                "The Fourth Symphony underwent the most prolonged, the most intricate, compositional process of any of the symphonies. Bruckner's work on it extended from 1874 until at least 1890. He recomposed much of the symphony during this process, entirely replacing the third movement and fundamentally reinventing the Finale. He prepared different versions for performance at least three times, and each time this led him to make changes, often substantial ones. And he finally saw the symphony through publication. Much of this story has either been unknown or significantly misunderstood, as have many of the larger issues raised by Bruckner's versions more generally. For these reasons, the Fourth Symphony, as the most extreme case of the "Bruckner problem," offers a uniquely advantageous platform from which to see key matters more critically and clearly than they have been previously"

                Extensive Wikipedia entry about this symphony....the bruckner problem...
                Annoyingly listening to and commenting on radio 3...

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                • smittims
                  Full Member
                  • Aug 2022
                  • 4088

                  #38
                  Problem? What problem? I just enjoy listening to it. Is that a problem? Am I bovvered?

                  I do sometimes wonder if some learned musicologists forget what music is for.

                  Comment

                  • jayne lee wilson
                    Banned
                    • Jul 2011
                    • 10711

                    #39
                    Originally posted by smittims View Post
                    Problem? What problem? I just enjoy listening to it. Is that a problem? Am I bovvered?

                    I do sometimes wonder if some learned musicologists forget what music is for.
                    That is very unfair. The labours of love over many years by scholars such as Carragan, Korstvedt and others on the Bruckner Editions and Revisions have been directly responsible for the availability of authenticated scores, and so many wonderful recordings of all of the versions we can enjoy today.

                    The "Bruckner Problem" is the dated cliché used to refer to all these original, intermediate and revised editions, but that wiki excerpt doesn't mention the wonderful clarity that those "musicologists" labours have brought about; it is much less of a problem thanks to them.
                    Listening to the 1874 4th is indeed a very different equally thrilling experience to that of 1880 or 1888 (there are three main versions). So this musicology - this scholarship - relates directly to our own listening to and loving of Bruckner's music.

                    I've been collecting the Bruckner 2024 Series on Capriccio, which aims to include all 19 Versions of the 11 Symphonies and release them by the 2024 bicentenary; and referring to Carragan's magisterial Red Book about the 11 Symphonies to appreciate the various versions.
                    How wonderful to be on that journey once again...
                    Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 25-01-23, 20:05.

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