Audio talk

[smittims]

Thanks , Richard. And while we're on this fascinating subject of innovative recording methods, does anyone know anything about the Jaap de Jong vacuum tube method usd by Philips in the 1990s?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Thanks , Richard. And while we're on this fascinating subject of innovative recording methods, does anyone know anything about the Jaap de Jong vacuum tube method usd by Philips in the 1990s?

Isn’t vacuum tube just another word for thermionic valve? Having worked on valve desks all I can say is I can say is they were hissier than transistors and WAY warmer …

[richardfinegold]

Thanks , Richard. And while we're on this fascinating subject of innovative recording methods, does anyone know anything about the Jaap de Jong vacuum tube method usd by Philips in the 1990s?

De Jong was (is?) a free lance engineer who built his own microphones using vacuum tubes, or valves as you Brits call them, and was used by Phillips among other labels in the nineties (I think)

[Bryn]

De Jong was (is?) a free lance engineer who built his own microphones using vacuum tubes, or valves as you Brits call them, and was used by Phillips among other labels in the nineties (I think)

That's not quite what a Google search reveals: http://www.sa-cd.net/showthread/7606/7968

Jaap de Jong is free lance engineer who built his own tube design mixing console. For many of the Philips recordings with Gergiev and the Kirov we worked with him and his equipment. I liked the sound of it very much and it showed me that many capsules of well known microphones sound much better with other electronics.

[smittims]

Thanks for this info. Some years ago I nearly bought a valve amplifier , having been assured it produced a more faithful sound. I wasn't qute convinced, and probably the fear of not being able to replace a valve when it 'went' put me off (memories of TV failures in the 1950s!)

[pastoralguy]

Thanks for this info. Some years ago I nearly bought a valve amplifier , having been assured it produced a more faithful sound. I wasn't qute convinced, and probably the fear of not being able to replace a valve when it 'went' put me off (memories of TV failures in the 1950s!)

About 20 years ago, a friend of mine sold his old(ish) Meridian equipment to me so he could buy the recently released Quad Valve Amplifier. Alas, he was forever replacing the valves which were quite expensive. He later got an admission from Quad that they had, perhaps, been premature in marketing that technology. I kept the Meridian equipment for many years until it became unserviceable due to the parent company being bought over by an organisation who would not support ‘obsolete’ equipment!

[Bryn]

About 20 years ago, a friend of mine sold his old(ish) Meridian equipment to me so he could buy the recently released Quad Valve Amplifier. Alas, he was forever replacing the valves which were quite expensive. He later got an admission from Quad that they had, perhaps, been premature in marketing that technology. I kept the Meridian equipment for many years until it became unserviceable due to the parent company being bought over by an organisation who would not support ‘obsolete’ equipment!

I have the same problem regarding parts and servicing with my 2 Tandberg reel-to-reel recorders. So frustrating.

[Goon525]

CallMePaul, the issue is that CDs plus downloads are a tiny fraction of the market. Most of us are using streaming. Then you can listen to whatever you like whenever you like. You do need an appropriate player, but given that, most of my listening is at a higher resolution than CDs. I pay an annual subscription but then can listen to the BaL winner within minutes of it being announced. As this week.

[Master Jacques]

CDs plus downloads remain - as CallMePaul has rightly pointed out - a considerably larger fraction of the art music market. The continued existence of Gramophone and other CD/DVD reviewing outlets shows that virtually no art music publishers ignore hard copy and/or download outlets, though they do offer streaming as well. The problem is, that the size of this segment of the market is so small, in global terms, which makes CD hardware in particular increasingly expensive, and increasingly unreliable.

Speed of access is not very important for many art music listeners. There are many reasons, on the other hand, why streaming is unsatisfactory for such listeners - especially when it comes to vocal works, including opera. So-called "gapless" FLAC streaming is unfortunately not well enough developed to listen to (say) a whole act of Wagner or Puccini with any degree of pleasure. I know. I've tried. Nor can librettos and translations generally be accessed on the streaming services. So it all depends what we demand from our listening.

[Bryn]

CDs plus downloads remain - as CallMePaul has rightly pointed out - a considerably larger fraction of the art music market. The continued existence of Gramophone and other CD/DVD reviewing outlets shows that virtually no art music publishers ignore hard copy and/or download outlets, though they do offer streaming as well. The problem is, that the size of this segment of the market is so small, in global terms, which makes CD hardware in particular increasingly expensive, and increasingly unreliable.

Speed of access is not very important for many art music listeners. There are many reasons, on the other hand, why streaming is unsatisfactory for such listeners - especially when it comes to vocal works, including opera. So-called "gapless" FLAC streaming is unfortunately not well enough developed to listen to (say) a whole act of Wagner or Puccini with any degree of pleasure. I know. I've tried. Nor can librettos and translations generally be accessed on the streaming services. So it all depends what we demand from our listening.

No problems with gapless PLACs playing as intended here. Perhaps you have an equipment problem. Though not, admittedly, with every streamed recording but many of the items available for streaming from QOBUZ do have pdfs of booklets available. Unfortunately, many CD releases, especially those within the bargain range, do not have either printed or downloadable booklets available.

[richardfinegold]

Regarding valve, or tube amplifiers, the first Quad tubed amp was released 20 years ago? Quad has been around since the pre transistor age, and I had thought there were models going back to the fifties. At any rate, I used a tubed pre amp, which I value because it gives a bigger soundstage, and solid state power amp. Power amps require more tubes, thus more potential troubles. Many integrated amps take a similar approach. Many guitar amps still use tubes. The Beatles, the Byrds, and countless other classic rock groups preferred them.
All of the ways of reproduction of recordings are valuable, from lps to CDs to streaming. I personally detest vinyl, and prefer CDs for digital, but last night I was perfectly happy to be cozied up with a book and picking music from my streamer using my phone. One reason I prefer CDs is that the software management system for streaming is geared to non classical music. I can actually find a recording faster from my shelves than on the iPad. I think this may be the main reason that streaming hasn’t won over all of the Classical listeners. I did use Apple Music yesterday to sample the Bychkov/Czech PO Mahler 5, and that is how I prefer to use streaming

[Sir Velo]

One reason I prefer CDs is that the software management system for streaming is geared to non classical music. I can actually find a recording faster from my shelves than on the iPad. I think this may be the main reason that streaming hasn’t won over all of the Classical listeners. I did use Apple Music yesterday to sample the Bychkov/Czech PO Mahler 5, and that is how I prefer to use streaming

Interesting. I agree that the streaming companies are primarily focussed on Rock/pop but invariably I find what I'm looking for on Qobuz within seconds. The key is to be precise with your search entry. For example, the recent BAL Mozart Paris symphony gave hopeless results if one merely keyed in "Paris". "Mozart Paris" was better, but somewhat hit and miss with a recording by Emmanuel Pahud recorded presumably in the French capital as the number one result, but "Mozart Paris Freiburger" nailed it. Likewise, if you know the artist then that should give good results although vagaries in spelling and/or other artists involved in the recording may need to be entered to get exactly what you're after.

[Master Jacques]

No problems with gapless PLACs playing as intended here. Perhaps you have an equipment problem. Though not, admittedly, with every streamed recording but many of the items available for streaming from QOBUZ do have pdfs of booklets available. Unfortunately, many CD releases, especially those within the bargain range, do not have either printed or downloadable booklets available.

It's not a user-end problem, but server-based. The problem with gapless FLAC playing is not so insuperable technically as MP3 (where 'gapless' can only be an - often very approximate - simulation, produced by superimposing or truncating files) but it still exists, where even minor server blips are apt to disturb buffering, producing noticeable cuts or gaps between tracks. Of course such cuts or gaps don't much matter between discrete symphonic movements, but even works such as RVW 6 are easily wrecked by them, as I'm sure you'd agree.

I'm not sure which CD labels you might mean, when you say that "many CD releases" do not have printed or downloadable booklets. I've never come across any such booklet-free CDs myself. Naxos is a good example of a company which does its best to provide libretti (especially of rare operas) online, where it is not cost-effective to print them alongside good notes and synopses in the booklets. Some companies make a point of not providing libretti through the streaming services, to give CD buyers and downloaders a fair advantage.

It's very similar to the printed book, which we were all told would be disappearing quickly when virtual digital files became available. Real people felt differently! The commoditization of art music - sale by the metre if you like, rather than by specific works - is always going to be resisted by a great many music lovers, which is why CDs (and LPs, though a hard sell these days for art music, as richardfinegold has pointed out) will be around for a long time yet. This may change when the mass of under-40s join the comparatively few older people who have not invested in large, personal CD collections, but for now musicians are quite as keen to see their efforts made "permanent" in the tangible form which only material CDs and LPs can provide.

[Pulcinella]

Interesting. I agree that the streaming companies are primarily focussed on Rock/pop but invariably I find what I'm looking for on Qobuz within seconds. The key is to be precise with your search entry. For example, the recent BAL Mozart Paris symphony gave hopeless results if one merely keyed in "Paris". "Mozart Paris" was better, but somewhat hit and miss with a recording by Emmanuel Pahud recorded presumably in the French capital as the number one result, but "Mozart Paris Freiburger" nailed it. Likewise, if you know the artist then that should give good results although vagaries in spelling and/or other artists involved in the recording may need to be entered to get exactly what you're after.

The search facility on Deezer is dire!
Very occasionally, I have used Google instead (including Deezer in the search terms), found a listing that way, and then been able to trace it through Deezer itself (sometimes just one performer, not necessarily the one you'd think of, being listed, or just the name of the orchestra or conductor!).

[Master Jacques]

The search facility on Deezer is dire!
Very occasionally, I have used Google instead (including Deezer in the search terms), found a listing that way, and then been able to trace it through Deezer itself (sometimes just one performer, not necessarily the one you'd think of, being listed, or just the name of the orchestra or conductor!).

Sir Velo's example, to which you respond so vividly, is a situation most of us will recognise all too well! We can be as search-literate as we like, but none of that allows for the utter incompetence with which vital information regarding "songs" is slapped into the streamers' databases. Google is indeed our friend, but many's the time I've given up trying to find recordings I wish to listen to on the streaming services. Even if they are there, goodness knows what they might be tagged under.