Mahler 4 - Roth -essential purchase ?

[cloughie]

I've just heard this all the way through for the first time, have enjoyed it enormously and look forward to a more careful listen in due course. Lovely pacing, some delightful instrumental details (and generally attractive sonorities, especially in the woodwind) and an excellent soprano too. First rate and fascinating all in one.

Fast becoming as predictable as the weather (or more so), Hurwitz has just posted a poisonous review of 'Roth's Rotten Mahler Fourth', which will surely encourage any doubters to give it a try.

A good rustic sound which suits most of this symphony - the only movement I think doesn’t quite come off for me is the 3rd! I also had a sampling listen to the Titan which also has a rustic feel to it and I loved the Blumine movt.

[Barbirollians]

A good rustic sound which suits most of this symphony - the only movement I think doesn’t quite come off for me is the 3rd! I also had a sampling listen to the Titan which also has a rustic feel to it and I loved the Blumine movt.

Striking to compare that although Roth is quicker in the first movement he is markedly slower than Walter (1947) in the other three movements . Whilst I get Hurwitz’s point about overdoing the slides it hardly justifies the foaming at the mouth that is his response.

[RichardB]

I wasn't listening under the best of circumstances (a download from Qobuz onto my phone, heard through noise-cancelling headphones on a plane!) but my first impression was very good. The highlight for me first time round was the soprano soloist Sabine Devieilhe, who I'm much more familiar with in 18th century music. Are the first two movements a touch on the slow side? Beautiful playing from Les Siècles as usual.

[vibratoforever]

I enjoyed Roth's Berlioz and his Mahler with the Gurzenich orchestra, but this is dire. Hurwitz is correct to ask, where are the strings? Portamenti are no problem, they are in the Mahler tradition, as Mengelberg and Barbirolli illustrate. But in the climaxes in movt 1 and especially the adagio the string sound is so thin. Fortunately the source for me hearing this was Youtube so no pennies lost. I listened after watching the Mahler 2 from Rattle and the LSO at the Proms, a performance that soared, so my disappointment with Roth may have been made even greater.

[RichardB]

where are the strings?

The strings are numbered 12.10.8.6.5 and gut strings are used, and that's the sound such an ensemble makes, though you may not like it.

[richardfinegold]

I wasn't listening under the best of circumstances (a download from Qobuz onto my phone, heard through noise-cancelling headphones on a plane!) but my first impression was very good. The highlight for me first time round was the soprano soloist Sabine Devieilhe, who I'm much more familiar with in 18th century music. Are the first two movements a touch on the slow side? Beautiful playing from Les Siècles as usual.

I also wound up listening with BT phones, but no airplane. It was very enjoyable. The chief virtue viz. the competition are the piquant woodwinds. At times I thought the strings lacked heft and the soloist in IV doesn’t soar like the best on disc but there was considerable artistry on display. Is it essential? It should be heard at least once, imo. After that, it’s a crowded field…

[RichardB]

Another way of thinking about the soloist here: her sound is completely integrated with the orchestra, emerging as an extension of it, rather than landing on it from outside as it were. The way this is done is more or less enough to make the recording "essential" as far as I'm concerned. As for the strings:well, FXR could have used a larger string ensemble if he'd wanted to, so let's assume that the string/wind balance here is something intentional. Plenty of commentators have observed that Mahler in his first four symphonies gives the winds a much more prominent role relative to the strings than in most previous music (and also than in his own work from the 5th onwards). The strings are often not used as an independent body of sound, but as a source of timbrally distinct lines that's woven through the texture on an equal footing with all the other timbrally distinct lines. This is a radical innovation in orchestration which FXR's recording brings out very well. Just my two cents' worth! (I haven't seen Hurwitz's review but I venture to say it's worth less than that)

[Ein Heldenleben]

Another way of thinking about the soloist here: her sound is completely integrated with the orchestra, emerging as an extension of it, rather than landing on it from outside as it were. The way this is done is more or less enough to make the recording "essential" as far as I'm concerned. As for the strings:well, FXR could have used a larger string ensemble if he'd wanted to, so let's assume that the string/wind balance here is something intentional. Plenty of commentators have observed that Mahler in his first four symphonies gives the winds a much more prominent role relative to the strings than in most previous music (and also than in his own work from the 5th onwards). The strings are often not used as an independent body of sound, but as a source of timbrally distinct lines that's woven through the texture on an equal footing with all the other timbrally distinct lines. This is a radical innovation in orchestration which FXR's recording brings out very well. Just my two cents' worth! (I haven't seen Hurwitz's review but I venture to say it's worth less than that)

At the risk of resurrecting old controversies Roger Norrington’s contention that the excessive vibrato of modern orchestras tends to swamp the all important woodwind detail was borne out for me by a magnificent performance of Mahler 9 at the Proms in approx 2010 . I’ve never heard so much of the woodwind in Mahler before. I can’t remember how many string desks they were though.

[Barbirollians]

Do we know what Mahler’s forces were at the early performances ? I see on Wikipedia a source from 1913 described the strings as numerous but that could mean anything

[Bryn]

At the risk of resurrecting old controversies Roger Norrington’s contention that the excessive vibrato of modern orchestras tends to swamp the all important woodwind detail was borne out for me by a magnificent performance of Mahler 9 at the Proms in approx 2010 . I’ve never heard so much of the woodwind in Mahler before. I can’t remember how many string desks they were though.

Spot on. I was on the front rail for that Prom performance, which was discussed at some length here, IIRC. Both ear and eye demonstrated that string vibrato was not entirely eschewed. It was, however, used with care, thus paying off more effectively when applied. Of course, RN put greater stress on the avoidance of string vibrato in his pre-Prom talk. His objection is to the use of vibrato as the fall-back tone-production mode, not vibrato per se. The devastation of the closing pages has never sounded so affecting, to me, as in that performance. Norrington's commercial (again 'live') recording with the same orchestra is very similar, if not quite as strong in its impact.

[cloughie]

Presto have 25% off DHM CDs and downloads until 3rd Oct!

[Barbirollians]

Presto have 25% off DHM CDs and downloads until 3rd Oct!

I listened to it this morning admittedly only on You Tube - liked some parts much more than others , thought the soprano was very good . Didn’t like the over the top “ Devil’s violin “ in the second movement and the Ruhevoll …

Even more of the view ,however, that Hurwitz just way over the top .

[cloughie]

I listened to it this morning admittedly only on You Tube - liked some parts much more than others , thought the soprano was very good . Didn’t like the over the top “ Devil’s violin “ in the second movement and the Ruhevoll …

Even more of the view ,however, that Hurwitz just way over the top .

I’ve been corrected via a PM - should have said 25% off HM not DHM!

[Barbirollians]

I listened to it this morning admittedly only on You Tube - liked some parts much more than others , thought the soprano was very good . Didn’t like the over the top “ Devil’s violin “ in the second movement and the Ruhevoll …

Even more of the view ,however, that Hurwitz just way over the top .

I do find the violin tone in the Ruhevoll a bit uncomfortably scrawny but the idea that it is - appalling or disgusting just reflects badly on Hurwitz.

Not at all sure I would want to listen to Roth’s account very often but I found it musically much more interesting than his Symphonie Fantastique.

[Barbirollians]

I do find the violin tone in the Ruhevoll a bit uncomfortably scrawny but the idea that it is - appalling or disgusting just reflects badly on Hurwitz.

Not at all sure I would want to listen to Roth’s account very often but I found it musically much more interesting than his Symphonie Fantastique.

I did follow it with listening to one of my favourite recordings of the piece - the Philharmonia/Kletzki and was reminded of just how wonderful a record that is - few sopranos come close to Emmy Loose and I think this was also one of Dennis Brain's last recordings for them before his tragic accident.