Top speed and weird opening of RR 8.1.22

[Ein Heldenleben]

I'm well aware of that, but I don't see why I should be inhibited about expressing my views on this forum! Surely that is what it's for? I have no problem with timps played with hard sticks in Beethoven, but this recording to my ears didn't render them as well as others I have heard.

As for Britten's comment on Beethoven (I can't find chapter and verse, but it was something like, '...the whole rot started with Beethoven') he was actually criticising B's attitude to those who found his quartets difficult - Beethoven said, 'These are not for you, but for a later age'. Britten's riposte was, 'A composer's job is to be useful to the living.'

I don’t think Britten’s remarks were about the late string quartets either . In the brief excerpt I’ve read (p524 The Beethoven Companion Arnold and Fortune pub 1971 Faber and Faber ) Britten is quoted. Summarising - he was a huge fan when young, receiving the Fidelio score on his birthday was “a red letter day” . Now he thinks Beethoven and Brahms led him in the wrong direction. Specifically he criticises the “crudity “ of the orchestral sound in the Coriolan Overture . It is “haphazard” . He also describes the variations in the Op 111 Piano sonata as sounding “grotesque” . I don’t agree about the piano sonata but I do find the final movt of the 7th has a somewhat unsubtle sound. I also think it’s a bit too repetitively tonic/dominant. I still think it’s a bit of a masterpiece for all sorts of other reasons - not least other aspects of the orchestration and the use of syncopation.
That “unsubtle” sound isn’t helped by overloud timpani which I suspect would sound just as loud in mono, at 128 kps and every codec up to and including lossless. But I think that is what the conductor wanted . Indeed it may even be an accurate reflection ( no pun intended) of what he heard in the spaces of this exotic Catalan “Cathedral” *. That’s his privilege as he’s the musical boss - just as it’s our privilege to think it’s too loud (or indeed not).
* looks like a beautiful place - attached to a castle.

[cloughie]

I don’t think Britten’s remarks were about the late string quartets either . In the brief excerpt I’ve read (p524 The Beethoven Companion Arnold and Fortune pub 1971 Faber and Faber ) Britten is quoted. Summarising - he was a huge fan when young, receiving the Fidelio score on his birthday was “a red letter day” . Now he thinks Beethoven and Brahms led him in the wrong direction. Specifically he criticises the “crudity “ of the orchestral sound in the Coriolan Overture . It is “haphazard” . He also describes the variations in the Op 111 Piano sonata as sounding “grotesque” . I don’t agree about the piano sonata but I do find the final movt of the 7th has a somewhat unsubtle sound. I also think it’s a bit too repetitively tonic/dominant. I still think it’s a bit of a masterpiece for all sorts of other reasons - not least other aspects of the orchestration and the use of syncopation.
That “unsubtle” sound isn’t helped by overloud timpani which I suspect would sound just as loud in mono, at 128 kps and every codec up to and including lossless. But I think that is what the conductor wanted . Indeed it may even be an accurate reflection ( no pun intended) of what he heard in the spaces of this exotic Catalan “Cathedral” *. That’s his privilege as he’s the musical boss - just as it’s our privilege to think it’s too loud (or indeed not).
* looks like a beautiful place - attached to a castle.

No doubt rejecting the ‘Dead men’s guide to orchestration’

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm well aware of that, but I don't see why I should be inhibited about expressing my views on this forum! Surely that is what it's for? I have no problem with timps played with hard sticks in Beethoven, but this recording to my ears didn't render them as well as others I have heard.

As for Britten's comment on Beethoven (I can't find chapter and verse, but it was something like, '...the whole rot started with Beethoven') he was actually criticising B's attitude to those who found his quartets difficult - Beethoven said, 'These are not for you, but for a later age'. Britten's riposte was, 'A composer's job is to be useful to the living.'

Well of course, you can express any views you wish; my problem is with critical musical and SQ judgements in less than ideal circumstances, but.... see above etc....
Britten-on-Beethoven is, surely, too subjectively composer-orientated to be taken as any kind of critical objectivity. Brahms, who also had profound psycho-creative issues with his great master, is a far surer, fairer guide. Just look what he did with it. Britten (who as a young man identified very closely with Beethoven, but of course drew far more from Mahler in his soundworlds), after a remarkable sequence of early, highly original, symphonic and concertante works, escaped into opera instead.

Incidentally (or not) the Tamestit/AAMB/Telemann album is just gorgeous! So if you dismiss it on a few minutes' lossy listening you are doing yourself out of a profoundly entertaining musical pleasure...

The SACDs of the Savall LvB 6-9 are here now. But I'm losing the will to post my considered responses after listening to them in hi-res sound....is there any point, if some here think "128kps mono" is just as representative?

Having made extensive comparisons across codecs/bitrates since I began downloading in 2011 (Scherchen's stereo Eroica, and Cluytens' Parisian Ravel suites, at 256 kbps aac, with which I compared the CDs, soon hearing what was missing, and it wasn't subtle or trivial) ....I'm losing the will to LIVE at that comment....

Time for soup, the great restorative....

[oddoneout]

It's been interesting to read the various views here, not least because growing up there was a learner timpanist in the family. I was able to experience the difference in sound between old-fashioned (copper/natural heads) and modern instruments, and different stick hardnesses and playing styles and their effects on the music, due to a combination of circumstances - instruments available for student use at home, and a tutor who was experimenting with researching and making sticks and their different effects. This was almost 50 years ago and the more assertive sound of the hard sticks was quite some way in the future.
There is a bit in this article about Beethoven's writing for timps which made me smile https://www.chrisbrannick.co.uk/writ...r-the-devil-2/
And I don't know if this has already been mentioned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZXW4kUMde0 I can't draw any conclusions from it personally as to the sound as my computer isn't up to it, and I didn't hear the RR version to compare speed.

[Alison]

Beethoven wrote thrillingly for the timps in his orchestral music. Far easier and more common to underplay them I’d say.

All power to Jordi’s player say I.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's been interesting to read the various views here, not least because growing up there was a learner timpanist in the family. I was able to experience the difference in sound between old-fashioned (copper/natural heads) and modern instruments, and different stick hardnesses and playing styles and their effects on the music, due to a combination of circumstances - instruments available for student use at home, and a tutor who was experimenting with researching and making sticks and their different effects. This was almost 50 years ago and the more assertive sound of the hard sticks was quite some way in the future.
There is a bit in this article about Beethoven's writing for timps which made me smile https://www.chrisbrannick.co.uk/writ...r-the-devil-2/
And I don't know if this has already been mentioned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZXW4kUMde0 I can't draw any conclusions from it personally as to the sound as my computer isn't up to it, and I didn't hear the RR version to compare speed.

Thanks for the excellent post . Really interesting comments from the timpanist. I’ve been thumping out the first movt of Beethoven 7 with two wooden spoons on a cushion Ludwig I take it all back !
I’m assuming cross sticking is playing the dotted A triplets left right left ?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

That “unsubtle” sound isn’t helped by overloud timpani which I suspect would sound just as loud in mono, at 128 kps and every codec up to and including lossless. But I think that is what the conductor wanted . Indeed it may even be an accurate reflection ( no pun intended) of what he heard in the spaces of this exotic Catalan “Cathedral” *. That’s his privilege as he’s the musical boss - just as it’s our privilege to think it’s too loud (or indeed not).

That's very true. The dynamic balance would be the same, whatever the compromises made by using different bit-rates, formats, analogue/digital, etc. The quality of sound would be very different to most ears, but if the timpanist sounds like an insensitive drum-kit player, then there's a real issue. My gripe was that it sounded like more like the muskets in Wellington's Victory than orchestral percussion.
Hippites drool over the sound of early pianos, stating the pianist doesn't overwhelm the orchestra when playing at full tilt, but a sensitive musician would never play more loudly than musical balance dictates. I suggest the possibility that this timpanist could have been encouraged to play extra loudly in order to make a point of some sort.

[oddoneout]

Thanks for the excellent post . Really interesting comments from the timpanist. I’ve been thumping out the first movt of Beethoven 7 with two wooden spoons on a cushion Ludwig I take it all back !
I’m assuming cross sticking is playing the dotted A triplets left right left ?

Cross sticking is just that - one hand crosses over the other - this is one explanation https://www.google.com/search?q=cros...h7_UP0KWY6Ao30 As he says consistency of sound is important. Try listening without watching - does he achieve that?

[Ein Heldenleben]

That's very true. The dynamic balance would be the same, whatever the compromises made by using different bit-rates, formats, analogue/digital, etc. The quality of sound would be very different to most ears, but if the timpanist sounds like an insensitive drum-kit player, then there's a real issue. My gripe was that it sounded like more like the muskets in Wellington's Victory than orchestral percussion.
Hippite drool over the sound of early pianos, stating the pianist doesn't overwhelm the orchestra when playing at full tilt, but a sensitive musician would never play more loudly than musical balance dictates. I suggest the possibility that this timpanist could have been encouraged to play extra loudly in order to make a point of some sort.

The only way of knowing would be in the audience during the performance. Timps , even with soft sticks , can be very loud can’t they ? Particularly if , as they often are , they are up against a hard wall acting as a handy reflector.
Talking of drummers . Once went to a Bill Evans concert at The Fairfield Halls. The drummer , the great Philly Joe Jones no less , was drowning out Bill. A few people shouted out “use brushes” and - you know what - the great musician did. Now that’s what I call responding to consumer feedback. Imagine doing that to a timpanist at the Royal Festival Hall….

[jayne lee wilson]

..

That's very true. The dynamic balance would be the same, whatever the compromises made by using different bit-rates, formats, analogue/digital, etc. The quality of sound would be very different to most ears, but if the timpanist sounds like an insensitive drum-kit player, then there's a real issue. My gripe was that it sounded like more like the muskets in Wellington's Victory than orchestral percussion.
Hippite drool over the sound of early pianos, stating the pianist doesn't overwhelm the orchestra when playing at full tilt, but a sensitive musician would never play more loudly than musical balance dictates. I suggest the possibility that this timpanist could have been encouraged to play extra loudly in order to make a point of some sort.

How many careful comparisons have you or Heldenleben made across those bitrates, from (in my case) 256mp3/aac to 24/192 flac/wav/alac, CD to HDCD to SACD? Over how many years and how many systems?
The dynamic balances don't all sound the same on a well-resolved monitoring system (the differences are easily measurable, as HiFiNews has often shown), - and I say this with some confidence after much critical listening, not just "to my ears".....

Its a good job the Gramophone reviewers don't behave so uncritically as some FoR3 listeners isn't it?

Anyway, timp sticks, heads and brick walls. I'll give up posting detailed reviews here for the present. No need and evidently no appreciation....
God this thread is exhausting.
I may round off on the Bartok BaL and then take a break from lengthier posts. Unless I get drunk. Or high on Valerian at 0300....

Time to dive into those Savall Beethoven Symphonies on SACD (I better not mention the name and model no. of the player.....what a scandal that could cause....), not that I'll be telling anyone here about them!
(Unless you ask very nicely, plying me with brandy and champagne....)...

[RichardB]

Hippite drool

You got out of bed on the wrong side this morning it seems.

[Ein Heldenleben]

How many careful comparisons have you or Heldenleben made across those bitrates, from (in my case) 256mp3/aac to 24/192 flac/wav/alac, CD to HDCD to SACD? Over how many years and how many systems?
The dynamic balances don't all sound the same on a well-resolved monitoring system, - and I say this with objectively after much critical listening, not just "to my ears".....
Its a good job the Gramophone reviewers don't behave so uncritically as some FoR3 listeners isn't it?

Anyway, timp sticks, heads and brick walls. I'll give up posting detailed reviews here for the present. No need and evidently no appreciation....
I'll round up on the Bartok thread and then take a break from lengthier posts. Unless I get drunk.

Time to dive into those Savall Beethoven Symphonies on SACD (I better not mention the name and model no. of the player...), not that I'll be telling anyone here about them!
(Unless you ask very nicely, plying me with brandy and champagne....)...

Quite a few since you ask and not just on stream rates but on all sorts of other audio comparisons. But they are all meaningless unless done on a double blind basis. That is neither the person making the comparison nor the person selecting the stream rate knows what it is . You would be amazed at how even people with so called “golden ears” have difficulty detecting basic things like out of phase speakers let alone the difference between CD quality and WAV. The problem is the ear has little memory and can only really detect these differences if they are instantaneous and there are absolutely no other differences including ,crucially, audio levels. That’s why listening to gear in a hifi sales room is pretty much a waste of time. You are much better off taking the gear home and asking yourself whether you like it.
One thing I will say the audio output of my Mac is way better than my iphone. I engineered a partially blinded test and could tell the difference every time. I’ve also convinced myself that the dac connection on my iPad produces better sound that the earphone socket though this test wasn’t partially blinded.
Many years ago in analogue days we did a series of fun tests on fellow professional audio engineers. Few could tell the difference between analogue recorded sound and digitally recorded or between live sound out of the desk and digitally recorded . Some couldn’t hear the difference between sound off tape (at 15 ips ) and desk out. We came to the conclusion it was partly years of ear damage! These were people some of whom who could tell you whether a note was a quarter tone flat or could ident all the chords in a pop tune and transcribe it.
Thankfully everyone could tell mono from stereo and recognised out of phase speakers though after 30 secs or so even that was difficult because the ear adjusts and thinks it’s normal. The whole interaction between the ear and the brain is very complex and it’s some thing that the audio industry exploits to its advantage . Hence the existence of £10,000 speaker cables. It’s the same with fine wine and people “drinking the label.”

[Bryn]

How many careful comparisons have you or Heldenleben made across those bitrates, from (in my case) 256mp3/aac to 24/192 flac/wav/alac, CD to HDCD to SACD? Over how many years and how many systems?
The dynamic balances don't all sound the same on a well-resolved monitoring system (the differences are easily measurable, as HiFiNews has often shown), - and I say this with some confidence after much critical listening, not just "to my ears".....

Its a good job the Gramophone reviewers don't behave so uncritically as some FoR3 listeners isn't it?

Anyway, timp sticks, heads and brick walls. I'll give up posting detailed reviews here for the present. No need and evidently no appreciation....
I'll round up on the Bartok thread and then take a break from lengthier posts. Unless I get drunk.

Time to dive into those Savall Beethoven Symphonies on SACD (I better not mention the name and model no. of the player..what scandal that could cause....), not that I'll be telling anyone here about them!
(Unless you ask very nicely, plying me with brandy and champagne....)...

While your level of audiophilia is well beyond my budget, (I am currently listening to the SACD of the 7th via an Oppo, one down from their now discontinues flagship player, a mid-range Yamaha surround receiver and a mix of upper-range Mission SX1 bookshelf speakers at the front and small Tannoy 'surround; speakers at the back). I'm in heaven (no, not the nightclub - not my scene at all). Timps, as expected, range in dynamics from the most subtle pianissimo to full thwack fortissimo. I must get around to getting my left B&W CM7 fixed (blown tweeter). Then the SX1s can go to the back, in place of the little Tannoys (though I am not so worried about the rear speakers for most listening, to be honest.

[Alison]

If the timps are as good in all the symphonies I’ll certainly be in the market for these CDs!

[Bryn]

If the timps are as good in all the symphonies I’ll certainly be in the market for these CDs!

Let's just say, I have the first set (1 to 5) as Hi-Res 2-channel QOBUZ imports at the moment. The SACDs for that first volume are a little more pricey than is Volume 2. However, on the basis of what I have heard of 6, 7 and 8 (9 will have to wait) I am looking out for a promotion on Alia Vox discs from the likes of Presto or Europadisc, et al. The timps playing is one of the big attractions of these performances, I feel. Bear in mind, though, that these are concert recordings (sans applause) and thus are not without the occasional minor mishap, nothing really disruptive, however.

Oh, and the closing pages of the Eroica should be right up your street.