Top speed and weird opening of RR 8.1.22

[french frank]

Hearing? tastes? historicity?

Most arguments seem to boil down to whether people's appreciation/satisfaction lies principally in the sensory (aural - as one might say 'I like/dislike the taste/smell of that') or the intellectual (it's how the composer would have 'heard' it, either in his head or actually performed)? Follow your own preferences.

[jayne lee wilson]

My ears are pretty duff these days but I didn't enjoy the Savall recording. It's so damned reverberant, isn't it? And looking at the score, I can see difficulties for the conductor which weren't really solved here. For example: early on in the movement the horns and full woodwind announce a new theme, but the natural horns have to drop out and play repeated notes before the theme ends, leaving the woodwind to continue. If the strings and timps are too uninhibited it's hard to hear the woodwind at that point. But as I say, maybe my ears are at fault.

Like most others here, you've heard one movement, from one symphony, via a lossy webcast codec, on an album containing four such works recorded at high-resolution in two different venues.
No serious reviewer would ever pass critical judgment on a recording based on such limited experience. To then pass such comment upon it against the score itself is, potentially at the very least, unfair to the performers.

But as I said above, even on that lossy excerpt I heard no major problems here. It was quite spacious (not over-reverberant though, on my usual system), but that will sound better balanced again (I'm quite sure), on the CD/SACD/24/96 etc... see my Telemann comparison for more (and reflect upon the visual analogy HD vs SD), which should clarify what may get lost in the lossy!
(The lossier the sound, the more system-dependent it will be; youtube, so often referenced, with a max of 256aac, is worse than Radio 3 in this respect).

For obvious reasons I won't say any more on the Savall now, though I may post later at greater length (On a different thread) on the new set itself

[cloughie]

Really? How was his hearing when he composed the C major? No lack of verve in his timp writing there. A rhetorical question, I admit. It was around the middle of composing the 1st that the first signs of his hearing impairment were noticed.

Do we really know? Let’s just settle that the man liked his drums, whatever the reason!

[Bryn]

Here's the 'culprit', Riccardo Balbinutti, beaters in hand:



Savall's programme notes open with a tale of Covid-19 cases, including his own, and consequent cancelled concerts from the tour. Hearing the opening of the 'Pastoral' in 5.0 surround after Hi-Res 2-channel stereo in the 1st and 4th, I have decided to order the SACDs of 1 to 5 as soon as the price drops somewhat. Hopefully, Presto or Europadisc will launch an Alia Vox promotion before too long.

[cloughie]

Here's the 'culprit', Riccardo Balbinutti, beaters in hand:



Savall's programme notes open with a tale of Covid-19 cases, including his own, and consequent cancelled concerts from the tour. Hearing the opening of the 'Pastoral' in 5.0 surround after Hi-Res 2-channel stereo in the 1st and 4th, I have decided to order the SACDs of 1 to 5 as soon as the price drops somewhat. Hopefully, Presto or Europadisc will launch an Alia Vox promotion before too long.

Behind that smile hides a manic skin basher!

[Bryn]

Do we really know? Let’s just settle that the man liked his drums, whatever the reason!

See https://www.popularbeethoven.com/at-...hoven-go-deaf/ and http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...802#post871802

[Bryn]

Behind that smile hides a manic skin basher!

Who isn't afraid to play Beethoven as written, rather than as watered down for 'Rollo'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Interesting observation - I wonder if that was triggered by his dodgy hearing!

No - I just think in that movement he just over uses the timps . Contrast say the Funeral March in the Eroica where the timp writing is masterly . But who am I to criticise Beethoven ?

[Bryn]

. . . t who am I to criticise Beethoven ?

Stravinsky, Cage . . . . You would not be the first.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Stravinsky, Cage . . . . You would not be the first.

Yes and indeed Britten who didn’t like his orchestration much . On the timpani question I can’t think of an earlier example of playing open fifths on the timps ( that is what they’d usually be) . Strikes me as a good test question for a conductor!

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes and indeed Britten who didn’t like his orchestration much . On the timpani question I can’t think of an earlier example of playing open fifths on the timps ( that is what they’d usually be) . Strikes me as a good test question for a conductor!

We recall that Britten's comment on Beethoven's Late Quartets was "that's where the rot set in..."....
Further comment unnecessary (except to say I would never judge timpani balances in orchestral works over lossy codecs....seems I'm in a minority on that).

I think I really need those Woods and Fieldfares again now... see ya!

[Jonathan]

Having just listened to the Beethoven on Record Review, I have to say that I enjoyed it - in the future, when funds allow, I shall most likely buy the complete set.

[silvestrione]

Having just listened to the Beethoven on Record Review, I have to say that I enjoyed it - in the future, when funds allow, I shall most likely buy the complete set.

Me too, even though Weber's comment (was it Weber?) came to mind, of Beethoven being ripe for the madhouse now, or similar.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Here's an interesting(?) point about how Beethoven's timpani parts are interpreted.
This is taken from a climactic point in the 1st movement of the 9th symphony:




Many conductors make an unmarked break immediately before the 'A' demisemiquaver (32nd note for our US friends). The effect is dramatic, but I don't know whose idea it was. The first two recordings I heard (Amsterdam PO/Grautz & VPO Kleiber) play it written, so I was more than a little surprised when I bought the Ansermet, which made this small but significant change. My next two recordings (VPO/Schmidt-Isserstedt and Bayreuth Festival Orch/Furtwangler) made the same dramatic break. It may may go back much further.

[rauschwerk]

Like most others here, you've heard one movement, from one symphony, via a lossy webcast codec, on an album containing four such works recorded at high-resolution in two different venues.
No serious reviewer would ever pass critical judgment on a recording based on such limited experience. To then pass such comment upon it against the score itself is, potentially at the very least, unfair to the performers.

I'm well aware of that, but I don't see why I should be inhibited about expressing my views on this forum! Surely that is what it's for? I have no problem with timps played with hard sticks in Beethoven, but this recording to my ears didn't render them as well as others I have heard.

As for Britten's comment on Beethoven (I can't find chapter and verse, but it was something like, '...the whole rot started with Beethoven') he was actually criticising B's attitude to those who found his quartets difficult - Beethoven said, 'These are not for you, but for a later age'. Britten's riposte was, 'A composer's job is to be useful to the living.'