Top speed and weird opening of RR 8.1.22

[Bryn]

Amazon have updated the delivery estimate for the Savall SACDs to "Arriving today by 10 PM".

[cloughie]

My ears are pretty duff these days but I didn't enjoy the Savall recording. It's so damned reverberant, isn't it? And looking at the score, I can see difficulties for the conductor which weren't really solved here. For example: early on in the movement the horns and full woodwind announce a new theme, but the natural horns have to drop out and play repeated notes before the theme ends, leaving the woodwind to continue. If the strings and timps are too uninhibited it's hard to hear the woodwind at that point. But as I say, maybe my ears are at fault.

Don’t blame your ears - unless I have the same problem!

[Bryn]

Don’t blame your ears - unless I have the same problem!

Now there's a thought.

Regarding tempo, the composer calls for minim=72.

[cloughie]

Now there's a thought.

Regarding tempo, the composer calls for minim=72.

Speak up Bryn!

I can take the speed but the noise?

Beecham, Erich Kleiber and others weren’t exactly slow!

[Ein Heldenleben]

My ears are pretty duff these days but I didn't enjoy the Savall recording. It's so damned reverberant, isn't it? And looking at the score, I can see difficulties for the conductor which weren't really solved here. For example: early on in the movement the horns and full woodwind announce a new theme, but the natural horns have to drop out and play repeated notes before the theme ends, leaving the woodwind to continue. If the strings and timps are too uninhibited it's hard to hear the woodwind at that point. But as I say, maybe my ears are at fault.

Nothing wrong with your ears. The timpani are over dominant and that is , in my view , a mistake made in the recording. The recording is over reverberant but not ridiculously so, . It looks like it was recorded in a stone cathedral / church in Catalonia so I suspect some of the timp sound has been picked up from reflections off the walls. For all Jordi’s commendable attempts to reproduce the forces for the premiere it doesn’t look like he was able to reproduce the acoustic. That took place in the Great Hall of the University of Vienna which , if the images I’ve seen of it are close to the original , is much smaller. There’s also a performance with the same forces on YouTube in a smaller concert hall in Germany which has very over reverberant sound even though it was clearly done by professionals . All this makes me think that’s what the conductor likes.

[cloughie]

Nothing wrong with your ears. The timpani are over dominant and that is , in my view , a mistake made in the recording. The recording is over reverberant but not ridiculously so, . It looks like it was recorded in a stone cathedral / church in Catalonia so I suspect some of the timp sound has been picked up from reflections off the walls. For all Jordi’s commendable attempts to reproduce the forces for the premiere it doesn’t look like he was able to reproduce the acoustic. That took place in the Great Hall of the University of Vienna which , if the images I’ve seen of it are close to the original was , is much smaller. There’s also a performance with the same forces on YouTube in a smaller concert hall in Germany which has very over reverberant sound even though it was clearly done by professionals . All this makes me think that’s what the conductor likes.

I suspect it was deliberate not a mistake as many a hipp recording feature loose timps - some listeners seem to like them - not this one!

[Bryn]

I suspect it was deliberate not a mistake as many a hipp recording feature loose timps - some listeners seem to like them - not this one!

Indeed, many do like to hear them as written, bearing in mind the instruments written for.

[cloughie]

Indeed, many do like to hear them as written, bearing in mind the instruments written for.

Each to their own, then!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I suspect it was deliberate not a mistake as many a hipp recording feature loose timps - some listeners seem to like them - not this one!

Did you think the lower (A ) timp was slightly out of tune ? That’s a separate issue . By mistake I mean allowing the timpani to be so acoustically dominant in the recording. I’ve been to many HIPP and modern instrument performances where the timps have not “appeared” so dominant - perhaps for the psycho acoustic reasons I outlined in an earlier post. For some reason the ear can adapt when it has a visual stimulus and compensate (a bit ). It sort of filters it out . That’s much harder when listening to a recording as once you notice it you tend to latch onto it and it nags at you.
Incidentally the Catalonia recording is so much better than the Savall recording made (on YouTube) Laizehalle Hamburg which, paradoxically appears much closer in size to the original venue! I wouldn’t mind see the recording stills for the Cathedral recording but can’t find them at the moment.
On the timp front I went to a Ring performance at Covent Garden where they had put the timps in one of the stage boxes. Some unfortunates in the stalls circle were sitting less than two feet away - no brain can compensate for that ….Though Wagner’s use of timps is very subtle and judicious whereas Beethoven was a bit trigger happy (in my view)

[Dave2002]

Blaming ears - maybe! I thought the timpani playing - on the kit which I was using at the time - not great - cheapish headphones via the R3 sounds app - plus my somewhat worn out ears - was great. For once it was very clear that the player was following some dynamic markings. There were perhaps one or two points where things got slightly muddled, but overall it seemed very coherent to me. Without following JLWs suggestion to make sure that listening is done with the "best" possible source and high quality kit I can't be sure that the overall sound, balance etc., was "ideal" - but I certainly wouldn't fault the timpani.

Amazon UK currently has symphonies 6-9 for £28.68 (3CDs) - though describes them as audio CDs. Looking at the images on the site, suggests that at least some are SACDs - and/or DSD recordings - Hybrids - so might sound better on suitable equipment.
The earlier issue set of symphonies 1-5 is currently £32.34 - also 3CDs and similarly shown as hybrid recordings. Whether there are any "better" downloads available I don't know. There are clearly several Youtube videos of performances by Savall and this orchestra, but they may not be the same as the recordings.

See https://youtu.be/pn5KPiFWiOo and related web pages.

I already have several (many ...???) good sets including several HIPP etc. versions - so I'm not sure that I need these - not yet anyway. However I do feel that this kind of performance/balance is so much better than many of the more conventional full 20th century orchestra versions, though unfortunately I have just used the word "better" in ways which some may feel are very personal to me.

[Bryn]

Amazon have updated the delivery estimate for the Savall SACDs to "Arriving today by 10 PM".

Now on its way from 28 miles away (by road), so I should be able to listen to all four symphonies today. 1, 2, 3 and 5 cued up to listen to in 2-channel stereo via QOBUZ import, external DAC, and headphones.

[Bryn]

On the subject of Beethoven and timps, was he, in the third movement of the 9th, the first to employ 'double-stopping'? He clearly liked his symphonic timps, from first to last.

[cloughie]

Did you think the lower (A ) timp was slightly out of tune ? That’s a separate issue . By mistake I mean allowing the timpani to be so acoustically dominant in the recording. I’ve been to many HIPP and modern instrument performances where the timps have not “appeared” so dominant - perhaps for the psycho acoustic reasons I outlined in an earlier post. For some reason the ear can adapt when it has a visual stimulus and compensate (a bit ). It sort of filters it out . That’s much harder when listening to a recording as once you notice it you tend to latch onto it and it nags at you.
Incidentally the Catalonia recording is so much better than the Savall recording made (on YouTube) Laizehalle Hamburg which, paradoxically appears much closer in size to the original venue! I wouldn’t mind see the recording stills for the Cathedral recording but can’t find them at the moment.
On the timp front I went to a Ring performance at Covent Garden where they had put the timps in one of the stage boxes. Some unfortunates in the stalls circle were sitting less than two feet away - no brain can compensate for that ….Though Wagner’s use of timps is very subtle and judicious whereas Beethoven was a bit trigger happy (in my view)

Interesting observation - I wonder if that was triggered by his dodgy hearing!

[Bryn]

The new Savall/Alia Vox release of the Beethoven Symphonies 6-9 were recorded live as follows:

6 & 7: 18-21/7/2020, Collegiale du Chateau de Cardona (Catalogne).
9: 30/09 and 1/10/2021, Same Venue.

8: 10-11/10/2020, National Forum of Music, Wrocław.

On the 320 kbps RR excerpt from No.7, I didn't hear any major balance anomalies. The timpani were very powerful; but did not over-dominate or texturally obscure. But of course the SACDs should bring, at the very least, greater refinement, instrumental and acoustic presence.

. . .

Thanks for the clarification. Listening to the 1st and 2nd from the earlier set of 1 to 5, there are sufficient slightly scrappy moments to suggest the avoidance of patching from rehearsal, too.

[Bryn]

Interesting observation - I wonder if that was triggered by his dodgy hearing!

Really? How was his hearing when he composed the C major? No lack of verve in his timp writing there. A rhetorical question, I admit. It was around the middle of composing the 1st that the first signs of his hearing impairment were noticed.