Top speed and weird opening of RR 8.1.22

[jayne lee wilson]

I’m not sure that whatever the sound quality of a radio broadcast that there can be any argument about the speed and style of delivery and the over enthusiastic timps - love ‘em - I’m sure you will Jayne or hate ‘em!

I think sensory perception operates at subliminal levels. A tempo perceived subjectively as " too fast" will sound different, possibly "rushed" if the resolution is not sharp enough. (Especially if any "myside bias" is present (in favour of certain instrumental vintages, say); this is often unavoidable; all you can do is try to be aware of it).

Imagine taking a video of a Parakeet flying overhead with its swift, powerful flight and rapid wingbeats. It would make a difference to your visual appreciation wouldn't it, if you viewed it at an HD or SD resolution....
So it goes with music...

[jayne lee wilson]

jlw, if, as I suspect, you have Savall's 4th to hand, I think that shows very well the range of attack employed by Le Concert des nation's timpanist. Hard-headed beaters and ranging from pianissimo to forte-fortissimo, as required. It's not an issue of microphone placement or level enhancement.

Absolutely!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Now you mention it, that was at least part of the trouble. Surely if heard in person at a concert venue (hall or church) they wouldn't have had that 'obliterating everything else' effect? However, we cannot really blame the engineers. Jordi S. must have approved the resulting recording?

Timpani whether played with soft or hard beaters can put out a phenomenal amount of sound energy. In the concert hall , for some psychoacoustic reason the ear/brain manages to compensate in some way so it doesn’t sound like the timps are drowning everything out. Mics can’t do that in the same way so often a lot of work goes into trying to artificially suppress the sound level of the timps in some way. There’s a similar effect with the kick drum in a jazz/rock drum kit. I’ve seen blankets used as dampeners for these . It might just be that the obliterating effect is what the conductor heard and what he wanted to reproduce.

[kea]

Honestly my main problem with the Savall Beethoven is the horns (and I guess wind players in general). The natural horn parts in Beethoven symphonies are obviously very hard to play and unfortunately we've been spoiled by lots of unrealistically well-played studio recordings from Gardiner, Immerseel, Brüggen et al., but even with those caveats the winds sounded out of tune (or rather the strings should have been playing in the same unequal temperament* that late 18th century wind instruments were designed for, and weren't) and the horns in particular very amateurish. It's completely unfair of me, but I expect better playing from HIP recordings at this stage. Have to clarify that I am not on the same "side" as the Karajan-loving troglodytes either, and do not in any situation want to listen to a 50 minute Eroica with nice smoothed out textures or whatever; I love the timpani and the tempi are unimpeachable. If it weren't for the orchestral playing, I'd be mostly on board here.

There are of course only two Beethoven symphonies I listen to regularly, 3 and 5, so this opinion does not need to be taken at face value.

* if I recall correctly, it's something like 55-TET with alternating steps of four and five notes between semitones, but I am not an expert

[RichardB]

I think that when Jordi Savall releases a recording on his own label, played by his own orchestra, it probably sounds like he intended it to sound!

[kuligin]

Like Kea my problem with this performance was not the speed rather my concern was that the the horns were so distant and lacking in prominence and far from HIPP in tone, and that they were drowned by the timpani, as indeed was virtually the whole orchestra. I usually enjoy HIPP Beethoven, and expect an impact from the timpani but to my ears this was a mess.

I am listening at present to a live recording by Pinchgut on original instruments of Iphigenie en Tauride. This work has plenty of work for horns and timpani in the opening, but in that recording, despite some rough edges, all the parts can be heard and the singers not drowned. Ultimately it is the conductor who is responsible for balance.

I heard the R3 broadcast on a Roberts Radio, I accept it would sound better through my hi fi, but surely the horns have to be heard over the timpani in Beethoven 7.

[kea]

I think that when Jordi Savall releases a recording on his own label, played by his own orchestra, it probably sounds like he intended it to sound!

I assume so. I find the orchestral playing oddly amateurish. Even if that's what he specifically intended, as opposed to "considered an acceptable trade-off", it doesn't appeal to me very much.

Here's a live performance in compressed YouTube sound where the timpani are quite recessed. I'll use the trio of the scherzo as an example: I do kind of wonder if I'm the only person who is particularly bothered by the fact that the strings are playing in equal temperament while the woodwinds are playing in their natural unequal temperament. (The horns are actually doing quite well here, no complaints.) Here's another example from the second movement, notable for having several passages with strings and winds in unison. The problems with the horn section are most notable when they're highlighted, as in this section in the Eroica (from the studio recording). All of this may obviously be intentional.

[Bryn]

. . . surely the horns have to be heard over the timpani in Beethoven 7.

As I am sure you are aware, at the opening of the final movement horns and timps share the very same dynamic markings. I had no trouble hearing both timps and horns, though, of course, with the hard-headed beaters employed, the timps' decays were swifter than those of the horn notes. Looking forward to hearing this from the SACD, in surround. I would have 'made do' with Hi-Res 2-channel stereo if QOBUZ had it, but they don't (yet). Roll on Monday.

[kea]

As I am sure you are aware, at the opening of the final movement horns and timps share the very same dynamic markings. I had no trouble hearing both timps and horns, though, of course, with the hard-headed beaters employed, the timps' decays were swifter than those of the horn notes. Looking forward to hearing this from the SACD, in surround. I would have 'made do' with Hi-Res 2-channel stereo if QOBUZ had it, but they don't (yet). Roll on Monday.

In the live recording I posted (I haven't yet heard the studio recording either), in the finale, my main problem with the horns is actually that they were too loud at times when they're supposed to be reinforcing a line in the woodwinds, and overused what on modern horns would be called cuivré to the point where it lost its effectiveness. The timpani were fine (although I assume in the studio recording the player used the more appropriate leather-covered sticks—something like this—whereas his sticks here looked fairly modern).

[gradus]

I just caught the last few minutes, a real whirlwind that reminded me of the drive of the 1936(?) Toscanini performance.

[Bryn]

In the live recording I posted (I haven't yet heard the studio recording either), in the finale, my main problem with the horns is actually that they were too loud at times when they're supposed to be reinforcing a line in the woodwinds, and overused what on modern horns would be called cuivré to the point where it lost its effectiveness. The timpani were fine (although I assume in the studio recording the player used the more appropriate leather-covered sticks—something like this—whereas his sticks here looked fairly modern).

I was a little confused, at first, by your reference to "the studio recording". Those on the SACD set are all from concert performances. The timps in the Youtube item you linked to certainly have a rather different timbre to those we heard this morning. I am not sure which concerts the SACDs were recorded at. Perhaps, like Krivine, he mixed from a number of concerts.

[kea]

I was a little confused, at first, by your reference to "the studio recording". Those on the SACD set are all from concert performances. The timps in the Youtube item you linked to certainly have a rather different timbre to those we heard this morning. I am not sure which concerts the SACDs were recorded at. Perhaps, like Krivine, he mixed from a number of concerts.

I see. That makes more sense. I was referring to the recordings on the CDs, yes.

[ardcarp]

the so inappropriately employed soft beaters of today,

...or as Berlioz put it, baguettes d' éponge. Of course I'm all for using appropriate timpani mallets in a HIPP performance. It's just that IMVHO their prominence in today's Beethoven 7 finale virtually destroyed everything else in the extract we heard today. Ironic that Ms Walker laid so much emphasis on inner detail when choosing a preferred Prokoviev 5 later in the programme.

[jayne lee wilson]

The new Savall/Alia Vox release of the Beethoven Symphonies 6-9 were recorded live as follows:

6 & 7: 18-21/7/2020, Collegiale du Chateau de Cardona (Catalogne).
9: 30/09 and 1/10/2021, Same Venue.

8: 10-11/10/2020, National Forum of Music, Wrocław.

On the 320 kbps RR excerpt from No.7, I didn't hear any major balance anomalies. The timpani were very powerful; but did not over-dominate or texturally obscure. But of course the SACDs should bring, at the very least, greater refinement, instrumental and acoustic presence.

*****

Comparing the Tamestit Telemann excerpt with the 24/96 stream, this lovely recording lost some of its warmth and tonal allure on the AAC R3 stream, the solo instrument (a gorgeous 1672 Stradivarius) sounding a little hardened and over-emphasised.
The notes tell us that this was the first true solo viola concerto ever composed, around 1617-21. Trust the AAMB to come up with that!

It is a wonderfully adventurous record with a very attractive Overture-Burlesque (TWV 55: B8) I hadn't encountered before, inspired by the Commedia dell'Arte with movements entitled "Scaramouche" and "Harlequinade" and "Pierrot" to keep us all entertained...
Later on there is a solo viola fantasy and a Concerto for Two Violas. The Viola in My Life by GPT...

The AAMB were among those groups that first seduced me with their Telemanniana over 20 years ago; I recall the "La Bizarre" album as among the catchiest (with a Frog Concerto to make McCartney jealous); I got the Georg-Phillipp-Bug bigtime, and I'm so glad to have something this compelling and pioneering from them once again. Pop Goes Baroque!

[rauschwerk]

My ears are pretty duff these days but I didn't enjoy the Savall recording. It's so damned reverberant, isn't it? And looking at the score, I can see difficulties for the conductor which weren't really solved here. For example: early on in the movement the horns and full woodwind announce a new theme, but the natural horns have to drop out and play repeated notes before the theme ends, leaving the woodwind to continue. If the strings and timps are too uninhibited it's hard to hear the woodwind at that point. But as I say, maybe my ears are at fault.