Top speed and weird opening of RR 8.1.22

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well, anything obviously does go because whatever is done to a Beethoven symphony the score is still there and nobody gets hurt. But whether something "sounds OK" is not as simple a matter as you make it seem! Music isn't just "how it sounds" when it encounters a living, breathing and unique human listener at a certain moment in their life and their lifelong learning process. It's not just a question of soundwaves entering the ears and stimulating the brain's pleasure centres or whatever - music doesn't exist outside its context, and that in turn is dependent to a great degree on how much contextual knowledge you have, whether you see a piece of music as embodying a particular moment in history and culture, or as something "timeless", or some interweaving of both, and so on. To take an extreme example: there would be a huge difference in estimation of what "sounds OK" between, on one hand, someone hearing Beethoven for the first time who has no prior experience of classical music and, on the other, a musician or scholar who has studied Beethoven's music their whole life (not to mention that the musicians and scholars will often disagree among themselves!); and we all sit somewhere on that broad continuum.

What "sounds OK" at some point in one's growing experience might not "sound OK" at another. To take one personal example: when I first heard Bach's vocal ensemble music sung one voice to a part I thought to myself "surely this isn't how it sounded to Bach", but bit by bit, and after some study of the relevant literature, I first came to the conclusion that in fact this was a lot closer to how it sounded to Bach than with a choir, and second that hearing it sung by a choir no longer really "sounded OK" to me because the state of my knowledge had changed. To me there's something exciting about exploring how music might have sounded in its time and place, however unachievable that may be, however unknowable it is whether one has succeeded or not, whereas the idea of ignoring such things doesn't excite me at all. To take another example: none of Shostakovich's music "sounded OK" to me for many years, until a friend who knows how my mind works sat me down with a recording of the finale of his 4th symphony - to quote Luigi Nono's title, y entonces comprendió: "and then he understood". On the other hand, the first time I heard a HIPP recording of a Beethoven symphony, which was the 3rd with the Collegium Aureum, around the end of the 1970s, I immediately thought yes, this is clearly much closer to how this music should sound. I didn't require any persuasion. Sometimes it goes one way, sometimes the other. It's like composing: sometimes something comes into your mind fully formed, sometimes it's a long struggle to reach a result, and nobody but you knows the difference.

The moment of revelation for me was the Rifkind Bach B minor . I thought I’d hate it - but in fact I loved it and pretty much stopped listening to my previous much admired Jochum version. The idea of a “perfect” or greatest ever performance is nonsensical - one pulled to pieces in Horowitz’s book Understanding Toscanini . His Beethoven recordings were marketed as unsurpassable but there can never be such a thing. The ninth is almost performer proof. I went to an amateur performance where the choir really struggled (hardly surprising ) but their attempts to get to grips with it were surprisingly moving - one of the more memorable performances

[RichardB]

bearing in mind my past and continuing association with the Scratch Orchestra

I remember around the time of the 1984 performances of The Great Learning having a long conversation with Howard Skempton about how what we were doing related to what was done in Cardew's lifetime, in particular that the younger members of the ensemble (like me) seemed to be a lot more concerned about getting right what was in the score than had been the case originally. But of course for us the score was all we had to go on, whereas Howard (and yourself, etc.) had a different kind of experience, of course a much more deeply involved one. Being "historically informed" involves taking all of that into account and then drawing conclusions on what to do. The result (correct me if I'm wrong) was not a reproduction of what happened fifteen or so years previously, but something of its own time that drew on all possible information regarding the work and its context and history. Just like historically informed performance of Beethoven or anyone else.

[Bryn]

I remember around the time of the 1984 performances of The Great Learning having a long conversation with Howard Skempton about how what we were doing related to what was done in Cardew's lifetime, in particular that the younger members of the ensemble (like me) seemed to be a lot more concerned about getting right what was in the score than had been the case originally. But of course for us the score was all we had to go on, whereas Howard (and yourself, etc.) had a different kind of experience, of course a much more deeply involved one. Being "historically informed" involves taking all of that into account and then drawing conclusions on what to do. The result (correct me if I'm wrong) was not a reproduction of what happened fifteen or so years previously, but something of its own time that drew on all possible information regarding the work and its context and history. Just like historically informed performance of Beethoven or anyone else.

Heh, heh. I, though one of the older Scratchers, was largely in the former category. I recall arguing strongly against a suggestion that the drums in Paragraph 2 should be less forceful, the score instructing that the drumming should be strong throughout, for instance, and that, in Paragraph 7, the only pauses on vocal production should be when one is listening for a new pitch to adopt for the next word or phrase. During the repetitions of a given word or phrase, one should take in breath, sing out the word or phrase for the length of exhaling that breath, then breath in again, sing out, and so on. When it came to the 2015 performance at the same venue, I got quite irate at the decision to perform just two of the five cycles of Paragraph 2 (and to make it just the first two cycles, rather than the first and fifth as in the 1972 Proms version and, indeed, for the earlier DG recording). Here, I was being somewhat HUPP, in that, at the end of the score for Paragraph 2, Cardew makes a point of stating that the foregoing instructions were but one way of performing the piece, thus lending legitimacy to the truncation imposed.

[Cockney Sparrow]

The moment of revelation for me was the Rifkind Bach B minor . I thought I’d hate it - but in fact I loved it and pretty much stopped listening to my previous much admired Jochum version. The idea of a “perfect” or greatest ever performance is nonsensical - one pulled to pieces in Horowitz’s book Understanding Toscanini. His Beethoven ...........

I really didn't appreciate the Rifkind. Fine in itself - if you want a voice to a part, go ahead, its just that I didn't. (Where's the contrast with the solo passages?).

It wasn't that I hankered after the Archiv Richter I'd learnt the piece from on vinyl. I just find a recording and performance with a chorus - Harnoncourt, Suzuki, Gardiner, more to my liking - and maybe expectation.

..... Toscanini . His Beethoven recordings were marketed as unsurpassable but there can never be such a thing. The ninth is almost performer proof. I went to an amateur performance where the choir really struggled (hardly surprising ) but their attempts to get to grips with it were surprisingly moving - one of the more memorable performances

Interesting comment. My first encounter with my brother in law was his choir's performance of the Mass in B minor. It was quite affecting to see the effort being put in, it was by no means perfect but also the music came through - the greatness of the piece.

I continually wondered why I felt short changed by the VPO Dream of Gerontius with Rattle. The only reason I could think of, was it all seemed like a walk in the park - no real engagement, no sense of struggle, or the piece being worthy of that engagement.

[gradus]

Some years back there was a BBC competition for amateur orchestras across the UK and a London orchestra of amateurs and some pros won with a great performance of Beethoven 7 and I have often heard music performed by amateurs especially choral music where the sense of effort added to, not detracted from, the musical experience. Occasionally - less so since the enforced silence of the Pandemic - one hears pro performances, soloist and collective, that suggest routine and over-familiarity with the piece, inevitable I suppose where repertoire is repeated ad nauseum.

[gradus]

I really didn't appreciate the Rifkind. Fine in itself - if you want a voice to a part, go ahead, its just that I didn't. (Where's the contrast with the solo passages?).

It wasn't that I hankered after the Archiv Richter I'd learnt the piece from on vinyl. I just find a recording and performance with a chorus - Harnoncourt, Suzuki, Gardiner, more to my liking - and maybe expectation.



Interesting comment. My first encounter with my brother in law was his choir's performance of the Mass in B minor. It was quite affecting to see the effort being put in, it was by no means perfect but also the music came through - the greatness of the piece.

I continually wondered why I felt short changed by the VPO Dream of Gerontius with Rattle. The only reason I could think of, was it all seemed like a walk in the park - no real engagement, no sense of struggle, or the piece being worthy of that engagement.

The VPO in Elgar - difficult to think of a more ill-starred combination.

[cloughie]

The VPO in Elgar - difficult to think of a more ill-starred combination.

Good to see you call it the VPO and not WP gradus!

Eliot-Gardiner did Enigma / intro & Allegro / Sospiri / In the South with the VPO - not bad with a good orchestral sound, but is JEG a number one choice Elgarian?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Good to see you call it the VPO and not WP gradus!

Eliot-Gardiner did Enigma / intro & Allegro / Sospiri / In the South with the VPO - not bad with a good orchestral sound, but is JEG a number one choice Elgarian?

I think that’s the finest of all recordings of In the South.
Rattle’s Dream of Gerontius with the VPO was very fine indeed as far as the orchestral playing.

[cloughie]

I think that’s the finest of all recordings of [l]In the South[/I].
Rattle’s Dream of Gerontius with the VPO was very fine indeed as far as the orchestral playing.

I still go back to the Bournemouth Silvestri for ‘In the South’!

[gradus]

I think that’s the finest of all recordings of [l]In the South[/I].
Rattle’s Dream of Gerontius with the VPO was very fine indeed as far as the orchestral playing.

Well I stand corrected. I had thought that they - the WP/VPO - were sniffy about Elgar, 'where are the other parts' when first seeing the Introduction and Allegro.

[RichardB]

(Where's the contrast with the solo passages?)

Exactly! In terms of the actual notes that Bach wrote, there isn't any division into "solo" and "choir" and there's no need to add one. Most performances of Bach's vocal ensemble music these days are based on a choral tradition which doesn't have any relation to the conditions Bach was working in, and we can't say "but Bach would have wanted..." because in his "Entwurff einer wohlbestallten Kirchen Music" of 1730 he tells us exactly what he wanted, which corresponds to one voice per part. Performing this music with a chorus is like performing Beethoven string quartets with a string orchestra - which of course has been done, and is not uninteresting.

[cloughie]

Well I stand corrected. I had thought that they - the WP/VPO - were sniffy about Elgar, 'where are the other parts' when first seeing the Introduction and Allegro.

Well you could have a point - I don’t think they have recorded the symphonies but I may be wrong!

[Barbirollians]

I still go back to the Bournemouth Silvestri for ‘In the South’!

There is also a late live Barbirolli “ In The South” which is tremendous - was on BBC Legends.

[cloughie]

There is also a late live Barbirolli “ In The South” which is tremendous - was on BBC Legends.

Yes, I have that! Strange EMI missed an opportunity to do a studio rec of it!

[RichardB]

Heh, heh. I, though one of the older Scratchers, was largely in the former category. I recall arguing strongly against a suggestion that the drums in Paragraph 2 should be less forceful, the score instructing that the drumming should be strong throughout, for instance, and that, in Paragraph 7, the only pauses on vocal production should be when one is listening for a new pitch to adopt for the next word or phrase. During the repetitions of a given word or phrase, one should take in breath, sing out the word or phrase for the length of exhaling that breath, then breath in again, sing out, and so on.

So, to sum up, it's a work which its composer performed with numerous people still living, only half a century ago, a recording of parts of it was released with many of those original participants (which few of them seem at all happy with), and there's still no agreement as to how it should be performed now! But, as I was saying, it seems axiomatic that the best way to proceed is to collect together as much as possible of the available information about how it was performed then, and use that information in what you as an interpreter think is the most appropriate way. (That's what I tried to do when directing paragraphs 2, 3, 6 and 7 in Novi Sad in 2016.) And if you're going to reject any of the knowledge at your disposal you have to have a good reason for doing so. As for Paragraph 2, only performing part of it is I guess a pragmatic solution to fitting it into a concert programme, but it won't have the sense of struggle as everyone has to sing higher and higher while making themselves heard against all the drums.