Are/were older recordings really so bad?

[richardfinegold]

Indeed - but many people are not going to feed the output to a decent audio system, or use a DAC, or even want to figure out how to do all those things.

I have heard some decent streaming services (probably was Tidal) fed into good quality equipment - and it was good - and I think that the highest quality Qobuz will be similar. There still remains the issue that there is absolutely no guarantee that any recording will always be available, and the possibility of streaming glitches - but that risk has to be compared with the likelihood that in the future CD players or CD or DVD rippers will not be available either.

An added factor is that there is no object - no physical product. For many that is a good thing - saves space - but somethow it doesn't feel the same giving a voucher for a streaming service or putting a downloaded file onto a memory stick or even a CDROM to give as a Christmas or special day present. Most likely there are benefits to allowing "real" CDs and physical media to co-exist with streaming for the immediate future.

Like you I do appreciate the benefits of being able to access various online sources quickly, but sometimes I just want the best quality sound I can get with the least effort. CDs may still be ideal for that - though sadly we only have one car left with a CD player. Previously I used the CD player in the car which died - prematurely in my opinion - most of the time.

Yes - I should be able to use mobile phones or USB sticks or other methods to use in our cars - but frankly I find those all too much faff.

The disappearance of CDs are necessitating that if one wishes to maintain access to a plethora of performances, one either has to use a streaming service or do a lot of downloading. For example, in the current Bruckner thread Joe K is lamenting the absence of the Haitink Amsterdam cycle, but it can be downloaded and streamed via Qobuz Downloading is a hassle (as is managing the files once downloaded) and expensive relative to a streaming service fee. The easiest way to stream is to buy a dedicated streaming component that comes with a DAC. Essentially this is what people do now instead of buying a CD player.
Dedicated streamers conceptually are not much different than CD players. Both entities are specialized computers with limited operating systems compared to a standard PC. CD players spin discs, extract digits, convert them into sound. Streamers take those same digits over either WiFi or Ethernet and convert them into sound.
One needs an app to control most streamers, but everyone owns a cell phone and downloading an app to the phone is a familiar enough process for even the most fervent technophobe

[Dave2002]

One needs an app to control most streamers, but everyone owns a cell phone and downloading an app to the phone is a familiar enough process for even the most fervent technophobe

I would query that "everyone owns a cell phone" - though admittedly many do.
Personally I detest the things.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I would query that "everyone owns a cell phone" - though admittedly many do.
Personally I detest the things.

The only cell phones in the UK are those smuggled (or allowed) in prisons.

[HighlandDougie]

Downloading is a hassle (as is managing the files once downloaded) and expensive relative to a streaming service fee. .

My apologies if this seems like the dreaded "virtue signalling" but buying and downloading files (as with CDs) does at least provide some return to the musicians, as opposed to the greater (Qobuz; now Tidal) or lesser (Spotify; Amazon Music) pittances provided to them through streaming. If I listen and really like something I've heard via streaming, I will then tend to buy the download or a CD (I'm a big fan of the Bandcamp approach/ethos). In that context, I miss Mr GG's recommendations of what's good (and what's not so good).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

My apologies if this seems like the dreaded "virtue signalling" but buying and downloading files (as with CDs) does at least provide some return to the musicians, as opposed to the greater (Qobuz; now Tidal) or lesser (Spotify; Amazon Music) pittances provided to them through streaming. If I listen and really like something I've heard via streaming, I will then tend to buy the download or a CD (I'm a big fan of the Bandcamp approach/ethos). In that context, I miss Mr GG's recommendations of what's good (and what's not so good).

It isn’t virtue signalling. It’s the best way to recognise and recompense the value and work of musicians.

[Ein Heldenleben]

My apologies if this seems like the dreaded "virtue signalling" but buying and downloading files (as with CDs) does at least provide some return to the musicians, as opposed to the greater (Qobuz; now Tidal) or lesser (Spotify; Amazon Music) pittances provided to them through streaming. If I listen and really like something I've heard via streaming, I will then tend to buy the download or a CD (I'm a big fan of the Bandcamp approach/ethos). In that context, I miss Mr GG's recommendations of what's good (and what's not so good).

I agree but the problem is that digital files / drives are not as reliable as cds or indeed vinyl (if looked after). Thirty years hence how many downloads will still be playable ? I recently lost some very expensively acquired material after a brand new expensive digital drive crashed. I had them backed up on another . I suppose the one advantage of audio files is they can be backed up a cloud server which , were I committed to audio downloads I would definitely consider.

[Bryn]

I agree but the problem is that digital files / drives are not as reliable as cds or indeed vinyl (if looked after). Thirty years hence how many downloads will still be playable ? I recently lost some very expensively acquired material after a brand new expensive digital drive crashed. I had them backed up on another . I suppose the one advantage of audio files is they can be backed up a cloud server which , were I committed to audio downloads I would definitely consider.

I think you hole your argument below the waterline with "(if looked after)" which applies equally to downloads, as you go on to suggest (backups). I have not had many CDs or DVDs fail over time but it does sometimes happen. Bronzing may have been the result of cutting back on the quality of lacquer used but there have been other reports of CD rot due to fungal infection in warmer climes. Also, most vendors of downloads allow for repeat downloads once you have made the relevant purchase. Downloads certainly save a great deal of storage space, compared to CDs or DVDs. I do, however, wish that other vendors would follow eclassical's example and offer Hi-res lossless surround downloads in addition to the stereo option.

[RichardB]

Thirty years hence how many downloads will still be playable?

Thirty years hence it maybe that downloading the soundfiles into one's equipment at home will be regarded as just as outdated as CDs or vinyl. Cloud storage is already preferable in many ways, for example it can't be lost or damaged like a physical hard drive and it isn't affected by changes in hardware - I have a box full of hard drives dating back to various times from the 1990s onwards, which use various obsolete connectors (like SCSI and FireWire) I have no way of connecting to a computer any more. If something I want to hear can be streamed I just stream it.

[Bryn]

Thirty years hence it maybe that downloading the soundfiles into one's equipment at home will be regarded as just as outdated as CDs or vinyl. Cloud storage is already preferable in many ways, for example it can't be lost or damaged like a physical hard drive and it isn't affected by changes in hardware - I have a box full of hard drives dating back to various times from the 1990s onwards, which use various obsolete connectors (like SCSI and FireWire) I have no way of connecting to a computer any more. If something I want to hear can be streamed I just stream it.

Oh come on, Richard, I feel sure that with a bit of searching, even on Amazon, you could find the required connectors and other kit to recover your old files from your ancient drives. The probelm, I find, is getting a round tuit.

[RichardB]

Oh come on, Richard, I feel sure that with a bit of searching, even on Amazon, you could find the required connectors and other kit to recover your old files from your ancient drives. The probelm, I find, is getting a round tuit.

Oh yes I know that - I might get around to doing such a thing if i ever have the feeling that there's stuff on those drives that is actually needed for any reason. Otherwise I think I'll leave it to the executors to sort out!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think you hole your argument below the waterline with "(if looked after)" which applies equally to downloads, as you go on to suggest (backups). I have not had many CDs or DVDs fail over time but it does sometimes happen. Bronzing may have been the result of cutting back on the quality of lacquer used but there have been other reports of CD rot due to fungal infection in warmer climes. Also, most vendors of downloads allow for repeat downloads once you have made the relevant purchase. Downloads certainly save a great deal of storage space, compared to CDs or DVDs. I do, however, wish that other vendors would follow eclassical's example and offer Hi-res lossless surround downloads in addition to the stereo option.

I suspect it will all end up in a digital black hole a lot quicker than you think. I have thirty five year old CDs that sound no different from when I bought them and 50 year old vinyls which are pretty good. I will be very pleasantly surprised if digital drives - even the best quality ones ( I buy rugged LaCie drives for the most important material and store it double backed kept in separate locations and also with a separate media company - so three separate backups ) are working in twenty years let alone 50. The problem with the cloud is you have no physical asset. if you look at the small print you don’t actually “own” anything on the cloud and if it degrades you have no recompense. As for re-downloading - what if the companies go bust ? I know of professional media organisations who have lost hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of digital assets despite back ups. Believe me digital storage is full of pitfalls. At the very least double back (I.e. minimum three copies ) valuable irreplaceable material and at the merest hint of a drive failing (the death click) do another copy.

[Dave2002]

Thirty years hence it maybe that downloading the soundfiles into one's equipment at home will be regarded as just as outdated as CDs or vinyl. Cloud storage is already preferable in many ways, for example it can't be lost or damaged like a physical hard drive and it isn't affected by changes in hardware - I have a box full of hard drives dating back to various times from the 1990s onwards, which use various obsolete connectors (like SCSI and FireWire) I have no way of connecting to a computer any more. If something I want to hear can be streamed I just stream it.

I agree with most of this, but the vagaries of commerce are such that recordings do get lost or withdrawn. Companies may "guarantee" that a recording or performance will "always be available", but rules can be changed, and company takeovers and mergers can ruin plans based on such trust.

At least if one has one's own copies on CD or something physical, or sufficient backup digital copies, it might still be possible to get these to play in 20 to 50 years time - though the latter possibility is unlikely to interest me.

I'm sorry to say that one of the London orchestras put out a request some while ago for recordings [broadcasts] from the 70s - and I suspected that my father had made a lot, some which might have been of interest to the orchestra in question. He had been fairly meticulous in cataloguing them. However, unfortunately - such is the way of these things - by the time I went to collect them, most of them had already "moved on".

[RichardB]

As for re-downloading - what if the companies go bust ? I know of professional media organisations who have lost hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of digital assets despite back ups. Believe me digital storage is full of pitfalls. At the very least double back (I.e. minimum three copies ) valuable irreplaceable material and at the merest hint of a drive failing (the death click) do another copy.

I think people are often too obsessed with hoarding things, whether physical objects or digital ones. Just because it's possible in principle to make as many perfect copies of a digital object as one wants, that doesn't mean one needs to do it.

[Bryn]

I suspect it will all end up in a digital black hole a lot quicker than you think. I have thirty five year old CDs that sound no different from when I bought them and 50 year old vinyls which are pretty good. I will be very pleasantly surprised if digital drives - even the best quality ones ( I buy rugged LaCie drives for the most important material and store it double backed kept in separate locations and also with a separate media company - so three separate backups ) are working in twenty years let alone 50. The problem with the cloud is you have no physical asset. if you look at the small print you don’t actually “own” anything on the cloud and if it degrades you have no recompense. As for re-downloading - what if the companies go bust ? I know of professional media organisations who have lost hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of digital assets despite back ups. Believe me digital storage is full of pitfalls. At the very least double back (I.e. minimum three copies ) valuable irreplaceable material and at the merest hint of a drive failing (the death click) do another copy.

With the cost of SSD and USB memory devices having fallen in recent years, they can make a useful addition to magnetic and optical media for backups. They, like hard drives, have a limited 'lifetime', so backup cycling is important.

[Ein Heldenleben]

With the cost of SSD and USB memory devices having fallen in recent years, they can make a useful addition to magnetic and optical media for backups. They, like hard drives, have a limited 'lifetime', so backup cycling is important.

Every one says they are more reliable - certainly against things like dropping them while they’re running . But what do we know about long term? I think a thirty year life would be acceptable ..