Are/were older recordings really so bad?

[Dave2002]

I think the design of some lossless encoders was based on lossy ones - oddly. Basically do a lossy encoding, then find the differences between the original and the reconstructed versions - then find a way to encode all of that in an efficient way.
The overall result is usually a significant compression compared with PCM encoding or typical CD encoding. There might be more processing required for FLAC or similar lossless encodings than PCM. An assumption nowadays is that processors are fast enough, and also that memory is now a lot cheaper than in previous years.

Of course digital compression in this sense is not the same as dynamic compression - which often renders even tolerable recordings totally lifeless.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I confess to be more than a little confused by the array of digital formats. It seems so much simpler to play a CD or an LP.

[cloughie]

I confess to be more than a little confused by the array of digital formats. It seems so much simpler to play a CD or an LP.

I hope I never have to rely on a computer for all my listening

[Dave2002]

I confess to be more than a little confused by the array of digital formats. It seems so much simpler to play a CD or an LP.

Unfortunately the options to play a CD are frequently taken away by the recording companies, causing some of us to have to revert to eBay to pick up older copies. In some cases the digital formats might deliver better results - but as you note - that requires familiarity with how they are used and compatible - often software - players. I can recall at least one occasion where I rushed to find a CD of something I was listening to in a (probably) fairly decent digital format - and the CD was so much better - had my foot tapping.

[jayne lee wilson]

I confess to be more than a little confused by the array of digital formats. It seems so much simpler to play a CD or an LP.

With a good, classically-aware, well-organised high-quality streaming service like Qobuz, Tidal etc., it is just as easy to replay music as it is off of a CD. You really do just choose and "press play"....and most of the booklet notes are there now too. Which you can enlarge to suit your ageing eyes! (Easier than the magnifier kept by the listening chair...).

So great after a BaL or a Gramophone Collection, Contemporary Composers or What Next?....

[Bryn]

With a good, classically-aware, well-organised high-quality streaming service like Qobuz, Tidal etc., it is just as easy to replay music as it is off of a CD. You really do just choose and "press play"....and most of the booklet notes are there now too. Which you can enlarge to suit your ageing eyes! (Easier than the magnifier kept by the listening chair...).

So great after a BaL or a Gramophone Collection, Contemporary Composers or What Next?....

As a matter of interest, do services such as Tidal have a facility similar to QOBUZ's import option?

[Dave2002]

With a good, classically-aware, well-organised high-quality streaming service like Qobuz, Tidal etc., it is just as easy to replay music as it is off of a CD. You really do just choose and "press play"....and most of the booklet notes are there now too. Which you can enlarge to suit your ageing eyes! (Easier than the magnifier kept by the listening chair...).

So great after a BaL or a Gramophone Collection, Contemporary Composers or What Next?....

Indeed - but many people are not going to feed the output to a decent audio system, or use a DAC, or even want to figure out how to do all those things.

I have heard some decent streaming services (probably was Tidal) fed into good quality equipment - and it was good - and I think that the highest quality Qobuz will be similar. There still remains the issue that there is absolutely no guarantee that any recording will always be available, and the possibility of streaming glitches - but that risk has to be compared with the likelihood that in the future CD players or CD or DVD rippers will not be available either.

An added factor is that there is no object - no physical product. For many that is a good thing - saves space - but somethow it doesn't feel the same giving a voucher for a streaming service or putting a downloaded file onto a memory stick or even a CDROM to give as a Christmas or special day present. Most likely there are benefits to allowing "real" CDs and physical media to co-exist with streaming for the immediate future.

Like you I do appreciate the benefits of being able to access various online sources quickly, but sometimes I just want the best quality sound I can get with the least effort. CDs may still be ideal for that - though sadly we only have one car left with a CD player. Previously I used the CD player in the car which died - prematurely in my opinion - most of the time.

Yes - I should be able to use mobile phones or USB sticks or other methods to use in our cars - but frankly I find those all too much faff.

[Bryn]

Indeed - but many people are not going to feed the output to a decent audio system, or use a DAC, or even want to figure out how to do all those things.

I have heard some decent streaming services (probably was Tidal) fed into good quality equipment - and it was good - and I think that the highest quality Qobuz will be similar. There still remains the issue that there is absolutely no guarantee that any recording will always be available, and the possibility of streaming glitches - but that risk has to be compared with the likelihood that in the future CD players or CD or DVD rippers will not be available either.

An added factor is that there is no object - no physical product. For many that is a good thing - saves space - but somethow it doesn't feel the same giving a voucher for a streaming service or putting a downloaded file onto a memory stick or even a CDROM to give as a Christmas or special day present. Most likely there are benefits to allowing "real" CDs and physical media to co-exist with streaming for the immediate future.

Like you I do appreciate the benefits of being able to access various online sources quickly, but sometimes I just want the best quality sound I can get with the least effort. CDs may still be ideal for that - though sadly we only have one car left with a CD player. Previously I used the CD player in the car which died - prematurely in my opinion - most of the time.

Yes - I should be able to use mobile phones or USB sticks or other methods to use in our cars - but frankly I find those all too much faff.

I find all this very confusing. Plugging a USB stick in more of a faff than opening a CD player's draw, placing a CD in it and closing it? To me, a CD is no more a physical object than is a USB stick, hard drive, SSD, CD-R etc. on which a download is stored. I have days worth of lossless downloaded music, much of it in hi-res, on a single nominally 512GB USB stick (which happens to have both A and C type connectors for greater flexibility).

[jayne lee wilson]

As a matter of interest, do services such as Tidal have a facility similar to QOBUZ's import option?

I don't know. I only ever looked at Tidal, never subscribed, but in any case never had any need to import off of Qobuz either....I just go to Audirvana+ and play music.

IIRC H-Dougie has Tidal, he may be able to help here....

***
For me, the streaming/ CDs combo has proved the perfect balance.

[Dave2002]

One of my friends has Tidal I think - but I doubt that he's ever used import.

[Dave2002]

***
For me, the streaming/purchased CDs combo has proved the perfect balance.

Perhaps modified by a few downloads as well.

But streaming only - no!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Unfortunately the options to play a CD are frequently taken away by the recording companies, causing some of us to have to revert to eBay to pick up older copies. In some cases the digital formats might deliver better results - but as you note - that requires familiarity with how they are used and compatible - often software - players. I can recall at least one occasion where I rushed to find a CD of something I was listening to in a (probably) fairly decent digital format - and the CD was so much better - had my foot tapping.

CDs are digital, and have been ever since they were launched. No bendy grooves - just pits under the surface that are read by a laser sensor, and converted to analogue in the player, wherever you happen to be.

[HighlandDougie]

Tidal has an "Offline" option which allows you to download tracks/playlists etc then listen to them offline. It seems to be designed to be used for mobile devices (phones, tablets) rather than desktops. I'm not sure that the latter allows for "Master Quality" downloads, although they seem to work on an iPad. Like Jayne and Qobuz, it's not a facility I've ever really explored with either Tidal or Qobuz. Tidal's sound quality is pretty good but it has far less classical material than Qobuz. Driving to/from Scotland through France a couple of months ago, it was great having the Qobuz App on my iPhone in a car which doesn't really do physical playback media other than USB thumb drives. With mostly good mobile reception and mobile contracts which allow for a lot of streaming and a wired or bluetooth connection to the car's "media player", it worked really well. As to Dave's post, Qobuz or Tidal fed into my Aurender streamer/Gold Note DAC combination sounds virtually indistinguishable from a CD, as indeed should be the case.

[cloughie]

CDs are digital, and have been ever since they were launched. No bendy grooves - just pits under the surface that are read by a laser sensor, and converted to analogue in the player, wherever you happen to be.

A sort of magic + perfectly formed!

[richardfinegold]

Indeed - but many people are not going to feed the output to a decent audio system, or use a DAC, or even want to figure out how to do all those things.

I have heard some decent streaming services (probably was Tidal) fed into good quality equipment - and it was good - and I think that the highest quality Qobuz will be similar. There still remains the issue that there is absolutely no guarantee that any recording will always be available, and the possibility of streaming glitches - but that risk has to be compared with the likelihood that in the future CD players or CD or DVD rippers will not be available either.

An added factor is that there is no object - no physical product. For many that is a good thing - saves space - but somethow it doesn't feel the same giving a voucher for a streaming service or putting a downloaded file onto a memory stick or even a CDROM to give as a Christmas or special day present. Most likely there are benefits to allowing "real" CDs and physical media to co-exist with streaming for the immediate future.

Like you I do appreciate the benefits of being able to access various online sources quickly, but sometimes I just want the best quality sound I can get with the least effort. CDs may still be ideal for that - though sadly we only have one car left with a CD player. Previously I used the CD player in the car which died - prematurely in my opinion - most of the time.

Yes - I should be able to use mobile phones or USB sticks or other methods to use in our cars - but frankly I find those all too much faff.

The disappearance of CDs are necessitating that if one wishes to maintain access to a plethora of performances, one either has to use a streaming service or do a lot of downloading. For example, in the current Bruckner thread Joe K is lamenting the absence of the Haitink Amsterdam cycle, but it can be downloaded and streamed via Qobuz Downloading is a hassle (as is managing the files once downloaded) and expensive relative to a streaming service fee. The easiest way to stream is to buy a dedicated streaming component that comes with a DAC. Essentially this is what people do now instead of buying a CD player.
Dedicated streamers conceptually are not much different than CD players. Both entities are specialized computers with limited operating systems compared to a standard PC. CD players spin discs, extract digits, convert them into sound. Streamers take those same digits over either WiFi or Ethernet and convert them into sound.
One needs an app to control most streamers, but everyone owns a cell phone and downloading an app to the phone is a familiar enough process for even the most fervent technophobe