Schubert Symphonies from Michi Gaigg

[cloughie]

... although that speculation can be from a position of knowledge or from a position of ignorance, and it seems clear which one is preferable. Some things we know fairly securely about Mozart: the (varying) size of the orchestras his music was played by; the kinds of acoustics in which they played, the instruments the music was played on; what his own father had to say about string playing, and not only this, in his (in its time very widely read and used) treatise on violin playing. So any "speculation" that doesn't make use of those readily available items of knowledge might be described as idle.

Yes there’s a good argument for speculation based on knowledge but isn’t it amazing how that knowledge has been used like a virus with so many variants - a hipp pandemic?

[RichardB]

A most enjoyable Telemann Orpheus from Michi Gaigg and (appropriately) L'Orfeo Barockorchester, which I got as part of the DHM/Sony Classical 30 CD Telemann Masterworks box (knockdown price a few years ago) - Dorothee Mields excellent as Orasia. Preferred to the Jacobs version (which I don't know) by some critics.

And by me too.

[RichardB]

isn’t it amazing how that knowledge has been used like a virus with so many variants

No it isn't amazing at all - the items of knowledge I mentioned aren't enough on their own to determine every aspect of interpretation, and indeed nor should they be, because performing styles and instruments varied more in Mozart's time than they do now. There is no one "right way" and never was. On the other hand there are ways in which we know the music wouldn't have been performed in the 18th century, because for example valved brass instruments and iron-framed pianos didn't yet exist, neither did purpose-built concert halls with 2000 seats, neither did conducting as a distinct discipline, or vibrato as the default setting for string playing, the list goes on... so while nobody will ever know exactly how Mozart performed his own music and there ought to be considerable leeway in imagining how he could have done it, surely it makes sense to eschew those ways in which he definitely didn't do it!

[gradus]

Yes there’s a good argument for speculation based on knowledge but isn’t it amazing how that knowledge has been used like a virus with so many variants - a hipp pandemic?

Puts it well. By all means imagine how music might have sounded and experiment with instruments and ensemble sizes etc but some HIPP enthusiasts seem to dismiss everything performed on modern instruments with modern playing styles out of hand and that must be a mistake, but not one I'm accusing you of Richard!

[MickyD]

And by me too.

Yes, that was a terrific bargain - so glad I snapped it up at the time.

[jayne lee wilson]

Puts it well. By all means imagine how music might have sounded and experiment with instruments and ensemble sizes etc but some HIPP enthusiasts seem to dismiss everything performed on modern instruments with modern playing styles out of hand and that must be a mistake, but not one I'm accusing you of Richard!

I'm sorry but - you know - chapter and verse here please? Who actually ever did this "dismissing" with any regularity or authority?
Certainly not the Gramophone, who have covered all manner of Baroque and Classical Performance Styles and practices since the 1960s or earlier, and very equitably, and articulately too. (In fact it would be easier to find G-writers from the 60s onwards negatively critical of period instrument recordings than the other way round; I know: I researched the archive.)
On this forum it is always the other way around: vague accusations against some unspecified "HIPP" mafia...

"HIPP" has become, on these boards, a facile term of abuse (using a the full-length version "Historically-Informed" and recognising how varied its creative results now are, might curtail the tendency to insulting dismissal)), now described as a "virus" which is as silly and dismissive and prejudiced a term as could be. All these terms do is prevent intelligent thinking and open-minded listening. Do the broad-spectrum listening yourself, or just forget it.

To say "By all means imagine how music might have sounded and experiment with instruments and ensemble sizes etc" is very dated and very condescending after half a century of intensive and dedicated scholarly research, which has resulted in a creative explosion of specialist ensembles in the 21st Century, renewing and revitalising both obscure repertoire and familiar oft-recorded symphonic masterpieces.
It is now a fully and richly established tradition in itself and it is here to stay.

Do the broad-spectrum listening yourself, listen attentively and repeatedly to Gaigg or Jacobs in Schubert, tell us what you think beyond comparing them to Karl Bohm or whoever - refine & update your critical awareness and be fair to the performers involved - or just forget it.

****
Time for more on Gaigg's Schubert.....4& 5 coming soon - lets get back to intensive listening!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm sorry but - you know - chapter and verse here please? Who actually ever did this "dismissing" with any regularity or authority?
Certainly not the Gramophone, who have covered all manner of Baroque and Classical Performance Styles and practices since the 1960s or earlier, and very equitably, and articulately too. (In fact it would be easier to find G-writers from the 60s onwards negatively critical of period instrument recordings than the other way round; I know: I researched the archive.)
On this forum it is always the other way around: vague accusations against some unspecified "HIPP" mafia...

"HIPP" has become, on these boards, a facile term of abuse (using a the full-length version "Historically-Informed" and recognising how varied its creative results now are, might curtail the tendency to insulting dismissal)), now described as a "virus" which is as silly and dismissive and prejudiced a term as could be. All these terms do is prevent intelligent thinking and open-minded listening. Do the broad-spectrum listening yourself, or just forget it.

To say "By all means imagine how music might have sounded and experiment with instruments and ensemble sizes etc" is very dated and very condescending after half a century of intensive and dedicated scholarly research, which has resulted in a creative explosion of specialist ensembles in the 21st Century, renewing and revitalising both obscure repertoire and familiar oft-recorded symphonic masterpieces.
It is now a fully and richly established tradition in itself and it is here to stay.

Do the broad-spectrum listening yourself, listen attentively and repeatedly to Gaigg or Jacobs in Schubert, tell us what you think beyond comparing them to Karl Bohm or whoever - refine & update your critical awareness and be fair to the performers involved - or just forget it.

****
Time for more on Gaigg's Schubert.....4& 5 coming soon - lets get back to intensive listening!

I think the clue is on the word “some”. Not all HIPP enthusiasts are the same. I find the subject most interesting and admire the work of the likes of Jacobs and Gardiner, but find the “superior” attitude of some others nauseating. We don’t all have to agree, just as we don’t all share passions for the same composers, musical eras, etc.

[jayne lee wilson]

I think the clue is on the word “some”. Not all HIPP enthusiasts are the same. I find the subject most interesting and admire the work of the likes of Jacobs and Gardiner, but find the “superior” attitude of some others nauseating. We don’t all have to agree, just as we don’t all share passions for the same composers, musical eras, etc.

The original quote was: "Yes there’s a good argument for speculation based on knowledge but isn’t it amazing how that knowledge has been used like a virus with so many variants - a hipp pandemic?"
As crude and sweepingly broad-brush as it comes.....the reply was: "puts it well".......

After starting this thread hoping to share some close and comparative listening - this was desperately disappointing, and so tiresomely repetitive of old prejudices. And will probably put others off contributing.....which makes me sad.

But I'll continue, and all for the Sheer Love of Schubert.....I still hope others will try these new sets soon and comment here........

[RichardB]

I think it's better to try to discuss the actual issues rather than concentrate on whether one or other participant in the discussion is being unfair or nauseatingly superior or whatever.

Given the choice, and other things being as equal as they can be, I always prefer to hear music played and sung in a historically informed way. I just prefer the sound. I like music to sound like it did (or does) when new, not through the prism of the late 19th century. Alongside the geographical colonialism that completed its conquest of the globe at that time, there was also what might be thought of as a form of historical colonialism going on, which continues to this day - the past may be another country, but everyone there needs to speak our language, we don't need to learn theirs.

edit: looking at this post again, and just to be clear, when I write "everyone there needs to speak our language, we don't need to know theirs" I'm trying to characterise the opposite of my own opinion!

[Braunschlag]

. We don’t all have to agree, just as we don’t all share passions for the same composers, musical eras, etc

Indeed. I cannot stand anything HIPP, but those who do, enjoy it please. I recall asking Ferney for a recommendation for the late Mozart symphonies and, guess what, it was the Bernstein, as far as you could get from the current HIPP crew. I’ve not looked back since.

[jayne lee wilson]

. We don’t all have to agree, just as we don’t all share passions for the same composers, musical eras, etc

Indeed. I cannot stand anything HIPP, but those who do, enjoy it please. I recall asking Ferney for a recommendation for the late Mozart symphonies and, guess what, it was the Bernstein, as far as you could get from the current HIPP crew. I’ve not looked back since.

And yet....
The great Thomas Fey used various combinations of period and modern instruments in the orchestras he founded, the Schlierbacher KO and the Heidelberger Sinfoniker. He recorded one glowingly reviewed, award-winning classical series after another of Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Mendelssohn.....his Haydn is among the very finest on record; almost always the one I reach for first.

Relevance? He studied with Harnoncourt and Bernstein, naming them both as his artistic models and masters..... his interpretive style is clearly informed by historical studies and awareness, but has uniquely expressive freedom and intensity. A very different sound from Jacobs or Gaigg.....

There are many other similar examples. So there is no longer much to be gained or discussed, with the generalised term or concept of "HIPPs".... simply because Historically Informed performances are so widely, and wildly, varied, in sound and interpetation....

[Braunschlag]

And yet - does it really matter? I remember hearing those Harnoncourt Beethoven Symphonies, I still have them, and it was a real wow moment, eclipsing anything by RN and the others. And then I discovered the Leibowitz/RPO which trounced them all, with a completely ‘modern’ orchestra.
It’s still my go to set.

[jayne lee wilson]

And yet - does it really matter? I remember hearing those Harnoncourt Beethoven Symphonies, I still have them, and it was a real wow moment, eclipsing anything by RN and the others. And then I discovered the Leibowitz/RPO which trounced them all, with a completely ‘modern’ orchestra.
It’s still my go to set.

But Leibowitz, most of whose Readers Digest/Decca tapings I have here on Chesky including that slightly hair-raisingly played, ensemble-on-the-ragged-edge Beethoven Cycle (my favourite for some time when I discovered it, though a little short on repeats), was among the first to attempt to follow Beethoven's metronome markings, following the pioneering recordings made in Vienna and London (with the RPO), conducted by Hermann Scherchen (another favourite - but with the advantage of Viennese Orchestras in some of the symphonies).

So the Leibowitz was, in fact, an early and very precise example of a historically informed set of performances itself. So yes - it really does matter, historically, technically and artistically - in the very listening, one-to-one before the loudspeakers....

As ever, what any given listener chooses to find out about such recordings and their backgrounds, the level of understanding or appreciation that may lead to, is entirely up to them.

[jayne lee wilson]

And now, back to the show!

4 and 5 raise this new Schubert cycle to new and greater heights, as, in a reading of some intensity, Gaigg finds the ominous tones in 4’s intro, then the defiant and desperate energies, the rushing toward and away from despair, with acute sensitivity to stress, phrase, colour and dynamic; those sad, drooping cadences in the andante; sudden stabs to the musical heart in the scherzo too; thrillingly, unusually percussive effects on the orchestra in the finale.
In this performance it sounds like “The Symphony of The Ride to the Abyss”…. those rasping, devastating horns!

The 5th is the coin flipped, serene and songful in its first two movements, a dancing, swiftly transitional divertimento of a minuet - then a high speed finale of almost manic joy, energy and impact. But what really impressed me was the sheer freedom of the reading (going further than her already excellent DHM 5th of a few years back): tempi, phrase and paragraph daringly rubato-rich, played through and in the moment.
(I wondered if Gaigg were not a little too fleet in the 4th’s scherzo; but it is marked “presto” of course, and the trio is beautifully, expressively done; the contrasts vividly drawn; the same could be said of the 5th’s minuet: this conductor real knows what she’s about; nothing taken for granted).

All through, those period instrument textures are their own triumphant justification. About as far from familiar or comforting as you could get. But the expressive differentiation between the 4th and 5th is vividly drawn. 


[cloughie]

And now, back to the show!

4 and 5 raise this new Schubert cycle to new and greater heights, as, in a reading of some intensity, Gaigg finds the ominous tones in 4’s intro, then the defiant and desperate energies, the rushing toward and away from despair, with acute sensitivity to stress, phrase, colour and dynamic; those sad, drooping cadences in the andante; sudden stabs to the musical heart in the scherzo too; thrillingly, unusually percussive effects on the orchestra in the finale.
In this performance it sounds like “The Symphony of The Ride to the Abyss”…. those rasping, devastating horns!

The 5th is the coin flipped, serene and songful in its first two movements, a dancing, swiftly transitional divertimento of a minuet - then a high speed finale of almost manic joy, energy and impact. But what really impressed me was the sheer freedom of the reading (going further than her already excellent DHM 5th of a few years back): tempi, phrase and paragraph daringly rubato-rich, played through and in the moment.
(I wondered if Gaigg were not a little too fleet in the 4th’s scherzo; but it is marked “presto” of course, and the trio is beautifully, expressively done; the contrasts vividly drawn; the same could be said of the 5th’s minuet: this conductor real knows what she’s about; nothing taken for granted).

All through, those period instrument textures are their own triumphant justification. About as far from familiar or comforting as you could get. But the expressive differentiation between the 4th and 5th is vividly drawn. 


Jayne I admire your enthusiasm for new recordings and making the case for new recordings being the best new recording of works but for many years now I have Schubert 5 as one of my favourite symphonies - if I want instant sunshine I reach to the shelves for it - I listen to it on my birthday each year (VPO Bohm MONO 1950s) but there are several other recordings - Beecham, IPO Solti, Jochum, Sawallisch, Abbado, Reiner... - I'll give the Gaigg a listen on Spotify and let you know how it compares - I may even see whether the great C major matches up to the great conductors!