Live Klemperer Mystery

[mathias broucek]

In the (wonderful) ICA downloads sale I bought several sets

One of them was Otto Klemperer (Richard Itter Vol.2) which includes a live performance of Beethoven 5, supposedly from 1958. However, I have some concerns about this performance, as follows.

1. The recoding is clearly in stereo which seems very unusual for a radio recording of that vintage (and the physical CD sold on Amazon clearly says "mono" on the reverse).
2. Indeed, the overall sound quality is rather exceptional: probably too good for broadcast material from this period.
3. The second violins are clearly on the left, which was not Klemperer's normal layout.
4. the overall timing is 37.40 vs. 34.02 on the back of the CD packaging (seen on Amazon).
5. The tempo relationships between the third and fourth movements are VERY different to Klemperer's other recordings - the famous 1955(?) mono EMI set has them at the same speed and in most of his performances that I've heard the speeds have been similar, whereas in this case the finale is MUCH faster... (Interestingly, I seem to remember the Gramo review saying that the performance "starts our like Klemperer and finishes like Toscanini" which is a pretty good summary.)

Does anyone have the CD or have any thoughts? The CD box (the download has no notes) mentions that the Beethoven 5 is from another, non-Itter source.

The performance is very good, by the way!

[Dave2002]

This is something I didn't know about. From following this up it does suggest that the downloads are a remarkable buy at the price, and the comments indicated that the performances are more dynamic than the roughly equivalent EMI studio recordings. However your comments re the timing do raise issues about authenticity. The comment re stereo might not indicate a contra indication as although radio broadcasts were probably not in stereo at that time, the BBC may already have started making recordings in some venues in stereo. However, the comment that the performance is vey good is encouraging - even if there might be some doubt about the conductor in the Beethoven 5.

Update: I looked further into this and there are some curious aspects. It appears that many of the recordings should be taken from Richard Itter's tapes - taken off air - and if so, then it would indeed be unlikely that there would be any stereo recordings from broadcasts as BBC stereo didn't start regularly until 1962. This article gives more information about Richard Itter - https://www.wyastone.co.uk/all-label...ollection.html

The comment that the Beethoven 5 was not taken from a Richard Itter source might indicate another route - perhaps directly from the BBC which by the presumed date of the recording may already have been making recordings - perhaps "experimental" in stereo. However the disparity in timings might cast further doubts on which conductor was actually reatured in the download set. The "information" available does seem vague and with uncertain "provenance".

There are other downloads which similarly seem also to be good in the same sale - as shown here - https://icaclassics.com/category/sale

[Petrushka]

I've done a search on the BBC Genome and it appears to be the concert broadcast live from the Edinburgh Festival on August 24 1958. https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/page/57d...12c7bc0ab02b07

Peter Heyworth's biography tells a most amusing story of Klemperer in one of his 'manic' phases during the two concerts he gave there that August. Heyworth lists a recording of the Beethoven Consecration of the House Overture from this concert on an obscure US label PAARV PRV3501. No mention of the symphony, though.

[Dave2002]

I've done a search on the BBC Genome and it appears to be the concert broadcast live from the Edinburgh Festival on August 24 1958. https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/page/57d...12c7bc0ab02b07

Peter Heyworth's biography tells a most amusing story of Klemperer in one of his 'manic' phases during the two concerts he gave there that August. Heyworth lists a recording of the Beethoven Consecration of the House Overture from this concert on an obscure US label PAARV PRV3501. No mention of the symphony, though.

If the Beethoven 5 is from the Edinburgh Festival performance, then it's interesting to consider how an apparently stereo version has emerged.

[Petrushka]

If the Beethoven 5 is from the Edinburgh Festival performance, then it's interesting to consider how an apparently stereo version has emerged.

Indeed it is. The BBC were making experimental stereo recordings around this time (the Horenstein Mahler 8 from 1959 is one of them and others have appeared on CD) but whoever captured this Klemperer broadcast would have had no means of doing so in stereo. The BBC began stereo broadcasts in 1966.

i wonder if this is indeed an early experimental stereo BBC recording that might have been 'rescued' from the vaults. If I remember correctly, many tapes were wiped in the 1970s but I think that quite a number were saved from this fate by certain individuals who realised their worth. This might be one of them. The information on the back of the CD, as on Amazon, seems a bit vague. Does the booklet contain any more info?

[mathias broucek]

Thanks all for the helpful replies.

Further investigation shows that the “my” track timings are different to the Presto downloads for all movements. I suspect that I’ve been sold files for a different performance that have misleading ID tags.

[Steerpike]

Doesn't sound like Klemperer to me, though clearly an 'old school' conductor.

I tried SoundHound which gave Blomstedt/Dresden for mov 1, Walter/Columbia for mov 2, Bernstein/NYP for mov 3 and Reiner/Chicago for mov 4!

I took the hint and compared the download with Blomstedt on YouTube. I just listened to half a dozen short passages comparing phrasing etc. Although not the same performance (live vs studio?) I thought it fitted very closely indeed. So my money is on Blomstedt/Dresden.

I wonder if this is a one-off or if other attributions in the downloads are dubious?

Steerpike

[mathias broucek]

Doesn't sound like Klemperer to me, though clearly an 'old school' conductor.

I tried SoundHound which gave Blomstedt/Dresden for mov 1, Walter/Columbia for mov 2, Bernstein/NYP for mov 3 and Reiner/Chicago for mov 4!

I took the hint and compared the download with Blomstedt on YouTube. I just listened to half a dozen short passages comparing phrasing etc. Although not the same performance (live vs studio?) I thought it fitted very closely indeed. So my money is on Blomstedt/Dresden.

I wonder if this is a one-off or if other attributions in the downloads are dubious?

Steerpike

Interesting. Thank you. The final movement is clearly from a different performance.

I’ve emailed ICA. All the timings for that set don’t fit with the CD timings on Amazon

[mathias broucek]

Interesting. Thank you. The final movement is clearly from a different performance.

I’ve emailed ICA. All the timings for that set don’t fit with the CD timings on Amazon

I've had a replacement download and apology (but no explanation). New performance sampled only but sounds much more like mid 1950s mono and the transition from iii to iv sounds right (if irritatingly not quite gapless)

[Dave2002]

I've had a replacement download and apology (but no explanation). New performance sampled only but sounds much more like mid 1950s mono and the transition from iii to iv sounds right (if irritatingly not quite gapless)

So presumably I could/should do likewise - though that's not going to solve the mystery.

Do you think the problems are only with the Beethoven 5, or are they evident throughout?

[Petrushka]

This disreputable behaviour is enough to put me off commercial downloads completely and then we get this

... not quite gapless

CDs for me still.

[mathias broucek]

So presumably I could/should do likewise - though that's not going to solve the mystery.

Do you think the problems are only with the Beethoven 5, or are they evident throughout?

Yes, he was responsive The Itter Vol. 2 is wrong throughout. Everything else sounds legit and has correct timings

@Petrushka - CDs can also be faulty - I had a box set the other day where one disc was correctly printed and had the right timings but the music was wrong... If you are nervous, stick with Presto or eclassical...

[cloughie]

Yes, he was responsive The Itter Vol. 2 is wrong throughout. Everything else sounds legit and has correct timings

@Petrushka - CDs can also be faulty - I had a box set the other day where one disc was correctly printed and had the right timings but the music was wrong... If you are nervous, stick with Presto or eclassical...

Presto is my first choice and their offers can be excellent value - I do prefer to have CDs but new prices are now getting higher with downloads very much better value - also so many people now relying on streaming as their main source of listening means that there are fewer and more expensive recently released CDs on the 2nd hand market!

[Bryn]

Presto is my first choice and their offers can be excellent value - I do prefer to have CDs but new prices are now getting higher with downloads very much better value - also so many people now relying on streaming as their main source of listening means that there are fewer and more expensive recently released CDs on the 2nd hand market!

While most modern laptops now come without optical drives, an external CD/DVD burner is not too expensive and will soon pay for itself if one purchases downloads and burns them to recordable CDs.

[cloughie]

While most modern laptops now come without optical drives, an external CD/DVD burner is not too expensive and will soon pay for itself if one purchases downloads and burns them to recordable CDs.

Indeed Bryn, I always burn my downloads! and it is good to compile them in my preferred listening order!