Schiff’s Brahms Concertos: Archetypal classics

[Ein Heldenleben]

But let's not hold that against them.

I was waiting for that! He inherited his taste for them from his composer and academic father.
It doesn’t look like Brahms played Blüthners much

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/70971435.pdf

[Bryn]

. . . It doesn’t look like Brahms played Blüthners much

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/70971435.pdf

Yet there are a fair few Internet sites that claim that Brahms has a fondness for Blüthner.

[pastoralguy]

I think it was Kurt Sanderling - at least I heard Schiff play both concertos under him at the Festival around that time, and I can’t believe he did it twice…I remember it because Sanderling was on the same train my friend and I took up to Edinburgh - I didn’t speak to the great man (not sure how good his English was?). He was wearing the same jacket as on the cover of his CD of Beethoven’s concertos 3 & 4 with Uchida (still my favourite of the C minor) which is how we first recognised him.

Of course it was! Thank you for that. (And the story!)

[Barbirollians]

I was interested to read a letter in this month’s Gramophone referring to one of Brahms’s letters from 1881 in which he asked for a Bechstein or a Steinway for his Second Concerto !

[Nachtigall]

I was interested to read a letter in this month’s Gramophone referring to one of Brahms’s letters from 1881 in which he asked for a Bechstein or a Steinway for his Second Concerto !

Yes, I read that. It rather blows Schiff's theory (you can hear him discussing his choice of instrument and his interpretations on YouTube) out of the water!

[Goon525]

Yes, I read that. It rather blows Schiff's theory (you can hear him discussing his choice of instrument and his interpretations on YouTube) out of the water!

But the proof is in the pudding...and these are magnificent performances.

[Bryn]

Yes, I read that. It rather blows Schiff's theory (you can hear him discussing his choice of instrument and his interpretations on YouTube) out of the water!

But what was the full context of the quote? Which pianos were available to choose from on the relevant occasion?

[Nachtigall]

Which pianos were available to choose from on the relevant occasion?

I don't know the answer to that question. We know that Brahms himself was the soloist in the first performance of the Second Concerto in Budapest. I suppose somewhere in the archives we might discover the make of the actual piano he used on that occasion. I've known the Second Concerto for a lifetime (Wilhelm Backhaus on Decca was probably only the third LP I bought as a teenager), but although I agree that Schiff's performances are exceptional and the Blüthner is not an unattractive sound, if I'm honest I can live without its slightly hard, clangy sound when played fortissimo. I'll always have the Schiff recordings in my Spotify library.

[jayne lee wilson]

Here's Schiff, from his ECM note to the two Brahms Concertos....

“Brahms’ preferred brands of pianos – Streicher, Bösendorfer, Blüthner – were far removed from the omnipotent and omnipresent Steinways of our times. The older pianos were more transparent, with a more singing tone, and richer in overtones and colours – partly because of their bass strings which were strung in parallel. They were also physically much easier and lighter to play.
The concert halls of the second half of the 19th century were not enormous: in this respect the Golden Hall of Vienna’s Musikverein with 1700 seats represents the upper limit.”

The Steinways and Bechsteins of Brahms’ time would have sounded very different to those of much more recent build (a few later-19thC models may be found on various recordings).

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/fantastic-piano-album-with-vintage-steinway-of-1887-kazuhiro-gambe/baczgq3vxi19b

But the particular expressed preference in the letter quoted in Gramophone should be read in the context of other reports and comments upon the pianos he liked to use (Often a Streicher); not as some definitive statement, because his experience was always live performance, and, of newer models, would often (like his available choices) be fairly limited.

Crucially though, there is the matter of straight-stringing. Earlier 19thC Steinways were made this way; I’m not sure how long this continued. Barenboim has recently recorded upon a Chris Maene straight strung design, and is full of praise for its colours and transparency - a wider expressive range. The aim of such designs is of course to bring back greater variety of action, tone and colour to the modern concert grand, akin to the range of earlier fortepianos from Walther and Fritz, to the later Erards, early Bosendorfers and beyond, which were much more varied in character from pianos used today.

There are merits in each design approach of course, but one must keep a little historical perspective on Brahms’ comment in his letter.

***
As to the present recording, after many hearings I don't recognise the description of the Blüthner as "slightly hard and clangy" at fortissimo, either off of the CD or the 24/96 stream on Qobuz, replayed on equipment that would certainly reveal any such deficiencies.

[Nachtigall]

Brahms seems to have played a number of different pianos during his life, including a Bachmann. I found this discussion of the pianos of the period, all of which Brahms was familiar with:

https://www.mfiles.co.uk/reviews/historical-timbres-brahms-played-on-period-pianos.htm

I'll listen to the Schiff recordings again, of course: "slightly hard and clangy" was an initial impression, which was perhaps imprecise. Some of this is subjective, as if we hear and unconsciously measure the sound against that to which we have been long accustomed. I see that Bayan Northcott, in his BBC Music Magazine review, while praising its clarity also notes the "wiry tone" of the Blüthner.

[jayne lee wilson]

"Wiry"? Wiry?
Does any piano, even an early fortepiano, sound "wiry"?
This often metaphorical term goes beyond any supposed evocation of the piano's physical construction.
Any specific passages referenced?

Problem with such a term is that it seems too obviously an effort to avoid more familiar descriptives (and makes me wonder what he was listening on...). Does even a harpsichord sound wiry? Perhaps, but they are very varied in sound themselves, some are surprisingly rich and full. Shakespeare might seem to think so.....(probably a Bassano Clavichord)...

How oft when thou my music, music play'st
Upon that blessed wood whose motion sounds
With thy sweet fingers when thou gently sway'st
The wiry concord that mine ear confounds.
SONNET 128.

Perfect there, but not much of a mot juste, in that BBC review...certainly not of this lovely, beautifully-balanced instrument, to these ears...warm and delicate, the tuneful bass perfectly matched to the band.

Finale of the D Minor playing now, off of Qobuz 24/96.... wiry doesn't even begin to describe it (literally or metaphorically...)...
Running onto the B Flat now.... what marvellous performances.... but I just have to get back to the garden....

[Bryn]

"Wiry"? Wiry?
Does any piano, even an early fortepiano, sound "wiry"? . . .

Depends what they are strung with, surely? How else should piano wire (if used) sound?

[Nachtigall]

Well, chacun à son goût. I'll always have the option of Schiff, but in the meantime will stick with Backhaus, Gilels, Leon Fleisher and Nelson Freire. Ah yes, gardening…

[Bryn]

For those on FB, can I recommend one of the discussion groups there, "The beauty of historical pianos"?

[jayne lee wilson]

Well, chacun à son goût. I'll always have the option of Schiff, but in the meantime will stick with Backhaus, Gilels, Leon Fleisher and Nelson Freire. Ah yes, gardening…

Well, more sitting under a tree with a drink really....advantage of keeping a wild garden beyond vast spreading brooms, soaring wild rose and blackberry, ragworts, dandelion, meadow buttercups, cranesbill and celandine....... low-maintenance....

But growth has been beyond any earlier experience this year - some heavy-duty hacking of pathways required soon (tree surgeons etc)...