Schiff’s Brahms Concertos: Archetypal classics

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

How about the pitches he asked for, are they open to being ignored, too?

But did he ask for them? I suggest he had to accept what was available.

[Ein Heldenleben]

How about the pitches he asked for, are they open to being ignored, too?

Do you mean it’s now Brahms 2nd in B major ?

[vinteuil]

Do you mean it’s now Brahms 2nd in B major ?

... depends in what German city Brahms was performing!

.

[Bryn]

Do you mean it’s now Brahms 2nd in B major ?

Not as such, just that if one can happily ignore Brahm's metronome indications, why not other aspects of his compositions, such as the pitches, note values, etc.

[Tony Halstead]

But did he ask for them? I suggest he had to accept what was available.

I'm 99% sure that Bryn was referring to the notes that he intended the pianist and orchestra to play, rather than the overall prevailing
pitch of the whole, e.g. A 438, 440 etc.

[Bryn]

I'm 99% sure that Bryn was referring to the notes that he intended the pianist and orchestra to play, rather than the overall prevailing
pitch of the whole, e.g. A 438, 440 etc.

Indeed, though somewhat tongue in cheek, since the type of piano, orchestral complement, the acoustics of the performance venue, etc., all impact upon tempo decisions, though such decisions should also take Brahms's metronome markings as a prime consideration.

[silvestrione]

Indeed, though somewhat tongue in cheek, since the type of piano, orchestral complement, the acoustics of the performance venue, etc., all impact upon tempo decisions, though such decisions should also take Brahms's metronome markings as a prime consideration.

Ah, well, I'm happy with that way of putting it! Sometimes you sound rather 'fundamentalist' on the matter (as, indeed, in the post about about notes, clearly not in the same category as a metronome mark).

[Ein Heldenleben]

Not as such, just that if one can happily ignore Brahm's metronome indications, why not other aspects of his compositions, such as the pitches, note values, etc.

Does the recording ignore his metronome markings? I’m not that au fait with them. One thing that’s always puzzled be is that the opening B flat chords which are marked staccato with a slur are nearly always played legato ...

[Barbirollians]

Not as such, just that if one can happily ignore Brahm's metronome indications, why not other aspects of his compositions, such as the pitches, note values, etc.

Isn't there some evidence Brahms was not bothered too much about that . I recall a story about him hearing performances of one of his string quartets that were completely different all round and praising both . Also did not Barbirolli suggest his rather measured VPO accounts of the symphonies were influenced by Sir George Henschel's marked copies of the scores - and that Henschel who was born in 1850 knew Brahms well.

[Tony Halstead]

Does the recording ignore his metronome markings? I’m not that au fait with them. One thing that’s always puzzled be is that the opening B flat chords which are marked staccato with a slur are nearly always played legato ...

Are we actually discussing the same piece? The opening B flat is a single solo note played by the 1st horn, not a chord as such. The next 2 notes continue in scale-wise fashion: 'Mice Blind Three', as it were (including the first note); most scores have a slur over these 3 notes. Then the next 3 notes, a triplet quaver group, are marked with a combination of slur and staccato, sometimes called 'mezzo tenuto', 'mezzo staccato' or simply 'portato'. About 50 years ago I had the uncanny experience of being asked by the soloist ( Arthur Rubinstein) and the conductor (Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt) to play the opening 3 notes 'long but articulate' (A.R.) and 'separately tenuto' ( H.S-I). But the next 3 notes were described as 'very smooth' (by both soloist and conductor). Terrifyingly, these requests were made only half an hour before the concert, in Rubinstein's dressing room at the Royal Festival Hall, with the conductor in attendance, nodding sagely as A.R. demonstrated on the little upright piano, while I played the opening in several different ways before it was finally approved. Strangely, there had been no comment at all from either musician in the morning rehearsal! it felt like an audition!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Are we actually discussing the same piece? The opening B flat is a single solo note played by the 1st horn, not a chord as such. The next 2 notes continue in scale-wise fashion: 'Mice Blind Three', as it were (including the first note); most scores have a slur over these 3 notes. Then the next 3 notes, a triplet quaver group, are marked with a combination of slur and staccato, sometimes called 'mezzo tenuto', 'mezzo staccato' or simply 'portato'. About 50 years ago I had the uncanny experience of being asked by the soloist ( Arthur Rubinstein) and the conductor (Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt) to play the opening 3 notes 'long but articulate' (A.R.) and 'separately tenuto' ( H.S-I). But the next 3 notes were described as 'very smooth' (by both soloist and conductor). Terrifyingly, these requests were made only half an hour before the concert, in Rubinstein's dressing room at the Royal Festival Hall, with the conductor in attendance, nodding sagely as A.R. demonstrated on the little upright piano, while I played the opening in several different ways before it was finally approved. Strangely, there had been no comment at all from either musician in the morning rehearsal! it felt like an audition!

Sorry - I’m talking about the piano part not the beautiful opening horn solo! But what you say about the horn part pretty much applies to it as well - the markings differ only very slightly . What does a mezzo staccato sound like? - is it the legato side of staccato with very little separation between the notes ? What makes me wonder is that at the end of piano opening phrase Brahms indicates a pedal marking. For the last bar only . Which means that the opening Bflat piano chords (essentially a chordal arpeggio) must sound pretty staccato as it is well nigh impossible to get a legato in the right hand (ok with my technique ) without a bit of pedal. Most pianists pedal this bit even though it’s not indicated!
Thanks for the fascinating anecdote - I’m pleased if a possibly naive question has prompted such a fascinating insight into what really goes on! I wonder why they couldn’t just leave you to it...

PS Pretty sure Rubinstein pedals throughout on the RCA recording - I don’t think Schiff does . The horn player on Schiff plays the triplet detached but not quite so much on the Rubinstein.

[akiralx]

Interestingly, for me at least, Schiff talks about playing both concertos at the Edinburgh Festival with the Philharmonia under Kurt Masur. Iirc, it was 1995 and I remember the Usher Hall being absolutely packed. (I do remember speaking to the leader, Hugh Bean, who must have been nearing the end of his illustrious career. We shook hands and I remember thinking about the artists who must have shaken hands with him!).

I think it was Kurt Sanderling - at least I heard Schiff play both concertos under him at the Festival around that time, and I can’t believe he did it twice…I remember it because Sanderling was on the same train my friend and I took up to Edinburgh - I didn’t speak to the great man (not sure how good his English was?). He was wearing the same jacket as on the cover of his CD of Beethoven’s concertos 3 & 4 with Uchida (still my favourite of the C minor) which is how we first recognised him.

[gradus]

Yes it’s great isn’t it. I have a Blüthner (not full size ) about 60 years younger than the one played by Schiiff and the bass is so rich. When I heard the opening D minor solo I recognised the sound immediately. Always wondered whether Brahms played one - kind of made for his music really (and Schumann).

Don't know, but Debussy owned a Bluthner amongst other pianos.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Don't know, but Debussy owned a Bluthner amongst other pianos.

Andrew Lloyd Webber has several....

[Bryn]

Andrew Lloyd Webber has several....

But let's not hold that against them.