François-Xavier Roth's Heroic Eroica

[cloughie]

You'd think a linguist, even a retired one, would be used to looking unfamiliar terms up.

Just sayin'...

But it is helpful when people say things in full rather than leave me guessing as looking things up often gives alternatives or in some case leaving me no wiser.

Just saying!

[LMcD]

You'd think a linguist, even a retired one, would be used to looking unfamiliar terms up.

Just sayin'...

I did when I was paid to! After spending many years proof-reading sometimes really dense legal documents, I look to the Forum for EWR.


(To the uninitiated - Enlightenment Without Research)

[Bryn]

Is the spreading of the chords because they are played as Fortepiano Concerti!

If you think of Steinway concert grands as fortepianos, then yes.

[vinteuil]

TMA, that's what I say! I wonder whether others agree.

... and 3,4,5-TriMethoxyAmphetamine to you too!

I look to the Forum for EWR.

ah, Echills Wood Railway (rlwy). I remember it well ...

Of course I agree. Abbreviations are not kind. I was trained not to use them without first using the words they represent ; a good discipline. I shall continue my battle against abbrs: here and everywhere....

.

[LMcD]

... and [B]3,4,5-Trimethoxyamphetamine [/B] to you too!

Of course I agree. Abbreviations are not kind. I was trained not to use them without first using the words they represent ; a good discipline. I shall continue my battle against abbrs: here and everywhere....

A term I encountered more than once in the latter stages of my career.

[Richard Barrett]

There has recently been a move towards spreading the opening piano chords in the 4th and 5th of Beethoven's Piano Concertos.

I was going to mention that. I wonder what the justification for it actually is, given that LvB (that's short for "Ludwig van Beethoven") was capable of specifying a spread chord when he wanted to, even if he probably wasn't completely consistent about it.

[Petrushka]

I was going to mention that. I wonder what the justification for it actually is, given that LvB (that's short for "Ludwig van Beethoven") was capable of specifying a spread chord when he wanted to, even if he probably wasn't completely consistent about it.

[silvestrione]

I was going to mention that. I wonder what the justification for it actually is, given that LvB (that's short for "Ludwig van Beethoven") was capable of specifying a spread chord when he wanted to, even if he probably wasn't completely consistent about it.

I think I read that Czerny claimed that was what Beethoven himself did (spread the opening chord of the 4th Concerto).

[cloughie]

If you think of Steinway concert grands as fortepianos, then yes.

So it’s not just sustain substitute!

[Bryn]

I think I read that Czerny claimed that was what Beethoven himself did (spread the opening chord of the 4th Concerto).

Yes, but Czerny was, IIRC, referring to the premiere, where Beethoven departed significantly from the published score. The version he played has seen an attempt at reconstruction by Jonathan Del Mar (as recorded, using a modern grand, by Ronald Brautigam).

[jayne lee wilson]

I think I read that Czerny claimed that was what Beethoven himself did (spread the opening chord of the 4th Concerto).

Yes - as Stephen Hough did in his splendid 2020 set of the Concertos with Lintu (on a modern "Vienna Concert Grand" Bösendorfer). See Gramophone 5/20, interview with Hough, for more. Sorry, I would quote at greater length, but one cannot copy/paste from the subscribed text, and poor health and restricted energy here.

I wasn't troubled by Roth's approach to the start of the 3rd Symphony; it gave the opening chords a slightly more "introductory" rather than "annunciatory" sound, and with the second chord just slightly less spread than the first, led into the sublime lift and flow of Roth's first movement perfectly. But finding the whole performance so arresting, I saw it as a small, if still significant, part of a much bigger, and very wonderful picture.

There is such a long, well-documented tradition of free interpretation, from composers as well as performers, beyond the printed editions of the score (which often vary themselves) that I always listen for the sonic and emotional effect of such, rather than judging it against the said text.
(There's a nice quote from Shostakovich, about arriving for continuing rehearsals of his latest symphony with new ideas for modifying his score... only to find Kondrashin (such a creative musician himself) was already doing exactly what he had in mind....as Paul Valéry almost said, a work of art is never finished, only abandoned....)

Putting it aside for a few days now. Fascinated how impactive new recordings can sound different upon one's return...but I suspect my impassioned enthusiasm for this one will not diminish...marvellous achievement.

(Back to the Sun and fresh air and birdsong and all the healing powers of the natural world....)

[cloughie]

I did when I was paid to! After spending many years proof-reading sometimes really dense legal documents, I look to the Forum for EWR.


(To the uninitiated - Enlightenment Without Research)

I was wondering why you needed an earwig whacking racket!

[Ein Heldenleben]

There has recently been a move towards spreading the opening piano chords in the 4th and 5th of Beethoven's Piano Concertos. I wonder if this has in some way influenced Roth's approach to the opening of the 3rd Symphony?

Interestingly in The Emperor again the fiddles have a stopped chord as with the Eroica but differently scored. Given the huge care LVB put into scoring this E flat chord in both the Eroica and the Emperor I am sure if he’d wanted an arpeggiated chord at the opening of P.C . No 4 or in the Aflat and Bflat7 chords in the Emperor he would have indicated it! Also as the Eflat and Aflat chords are followed by a series of flashy (but satisfyingly technically undemanding ) arpeggios what’s the point of spreading the block chords - so that the pianist can warm up arpeggio-wise ?

[Richard Barrett]

Spreading those piano chords sounds wrong to me, but of course one should be wary of that sort of response if it's just the result of familiarity with a particular way of doing things. In the case of the Eroica, though, the chords are actually marked staccato very unambiguously, and they involve not just the first and second violins with their quadruple and triple stopping respectively, but also the rest of the orchestra, which once more suggests that articulation ought to be consistent across the entire ensemble. So with this recording I don't think it's just familiarity that leads me to think it "sounds wrong". And it's not only here that Roth does this with multiple stops in the violins - it happens in the Scherzo as well, and maybe also in other places I didn't notice. Others may find this a minor point, but whatever good things happen in this performance, annoying (to me) features like this are going to spoil it.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Just about the last live concert I heard before lockdown was Beethoven 4 with Alfredo Ovalles and the BSO . Can’t remember whether he spread the opening chords but he certainly inserted some material, improvised and embellished around the passage work and went into “swing “ quavers during the first movement cadenza...