François-Xavier Roth's Heroic Eroica

[richardfinegold]

Four fewer performers than the maximum that might have been accommodated for the premiere. Does anyone here know just how many participated in that premiere? I can't immediately recall whether it was mentioned in:

I recall an interview with JEG at the beginning of the recent LvB year in which he stated the premiers of most of his Symphonies were fiascos, and with forces smaller than the composer would have preferred. JEG stated the first really good, consistent performances of the works were from the Paris Orchestra of the 1820s, which also had better documentation as to their makeup.
To jlw point, Roth Orchestra isn’t that small, but they are about half the size of the BPO under Furtwangler or Karajan, or Toscanini NBC. And perhaps it’s the lack of vibrato but they sound even smaller, to my ears. It’s just hard for me, used to a certain oomph, to find enjoyable, although I do frequently listen to the Eroicas of Savall and Hogwood. It’s a preference, with the larger forces in my mind being consistent with the revolutionary intent of the Composer. Your mileage may vary

[Cockney Sparrow]

Jayne - you've made reference at times to listening at higher volumes - I agree with you the sound "opens out" in revelatory ways (good and bad in my experience) when that is possible. I get the impression you must live in a detached property and presumably with no neighbour problems so can use your sound system -obviously honed and adjusted to perfection as far as your ears require - from your descriptions. And hear this open sound quite a lot (?or always).

I'll stop the intrusive speculation there, but I am leading to an observation that for me the opening out at higher volumes is only possible when I am alone (in our detached house). I sometimes think Mrs CS is happiest being aware that music is going on in a room elsewhere, but certainly doesn't want to listen at the sort of high ('ish) volumes I am suggesting here. I don't like headphones much, certainly not for sessions of an hour or more and anyway would be tethered to a decent headphone amp which again limits opportunities. (And neither am I interested in choosing/paying for/acquiring the tech for wi fi/noise cancelling wireless or mobile phone attached in or out of ear headphones - because my family feel I should always be available for questions / discussions at the drop of a hat........

With these sorts of considerations, it feels like an infrequent treat when I can sit down for an hour or even three and listen to the "opened out" sound on my speaker system.....

How is it for other listeners amongst FoR3 - terraced house/ flat (appartment) or (so as not to exclude younger or others) - those who are in house share accommodation - the latter not confined to University students of course, especially these days.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Jayne - you've made reference at times to listening at higher volumes - I agree with you the sound "opens out" in revelatory ways (good and bad in my experience) when that is possible. I get the impression you must live in a detached property and presumably with no neighbour problems so can use your sound system -obviously honed and adjusted to perfection as far as your ears require - from your descriptions. And hear this open sound quite a lot (?or always).

I'll stop the intrusive speculation there, but I am leading to an observation that for me the opening out at higher volumes is only possible when I am alone (in our detached house). I sometimes think Mrs CS is happiest being aware that music is going on in a room elsewhere, but certainly doesn't want to listen at the sort of high ('ish) volumes I am suggesting here. I don't like headphones much, certainly not for sessions of an hour or more and anyway would be tethered to a decent headphone amp which again limits opportunities. (And neither am I interested in choosing/paying for/acquiring the tech for wi fi/noise cancelling wireless or mobile phone attached in or out of ear headphones - because my family feel I should always be available for questions / discussions at the drop of a hat........

With these sorts of considerations, it feels like an infrequent treat when I can sit down for an hour or even three and listen to the "opened out" sound on my speaker system.....

How is it for other listeners amongst FoR3 - terraced house/ flat (appartment) or (so as not to exclude younger or others) - those who are in house share accommodation - the latter not confined to University students of course, especially these days.

I can’t see there is any point listening any louder than the sound would be say half way back at the Royal festival Hall - mind you that could be fairly loud! . I would rarely listen above 65 to 70 dba ( at one metre from speakers) as above that is too loud for the neighbours . Based on the experiences of forty years ago I would say that classical music balancers listen at levels quite a bit above that and rock mixers way above that. It’s not just the sound “opening out “ I.e. more audible detail , they would also be listening for distortion in a mic channel. Currently listening to Mathis der Mahler Prom at about 70 dba for FF peaks and that’s fine . It would be interesting to hear what sort of level others listen to (measured at 1 metre from a line drawn between the speakers. Obviously most people sit further back usually 3 metres away ( which incidentally is further back than most sound balancers.) There are a quite a few decibel meter apps - having calibrated them against professional equipment I was surprised how accurate they are.

[Bryn]

Where listening levels are concerned, so much depends upon the ambient sound/noise level and the music being listened to. I am fortunate in that though I live in a semi-detached house in a late 1950's 'new town' housing estate, the background sound level is usually pretty low. All the larger rooms currently suitable for music listening share a cavity wall with the other semi. However, an extension was built over the attached garage, stretching from the front to the back of the house. That would be the ideal listening room but I have yet to clear, re-floor and decorate it. My intention would be to aim for a peak level of around 90 dBa if listening to a Kancheli symphony, but more like 55 dBa for, say, Feldman's King of Denmark. Horses for courses.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I can’t see there is any point listening any louder than the sound would be say half way back at the Royal festival Hall - mind you that could be fairly loud! . I would rarely listen above 65 to 70 dba ( at one metre from speakers) as above that is too loud for the neighbours . Based on the experiences of forty years ago I would say that classical music balancers listen at levels quite a bit above that and rock mixers way above that. It’s not just the sound “opening out “ I.e. more audible detail , they would also be listening for distortion in a mic channel. Currently listening to Mathis der Mahler Prom at about 70 dba for FF peaks and that’s fine . It would be interesting to hear what sort of level others listen to (measured at 1 metre from a line drawn between the speakers. Obviously most people sit further back usually 3 metres away ( which incidentally is further back than most sound balancers.) There are a quite a few decibel meter apps - having calibrated them against professional equipment I was surprised how accurate they are.

I remember a tutti rehearsal for Belshazzar's Feast in the large hall at Cecil Sharp House - we were warned there was a limit to the decibels we could create, and if the alarm was triggered, we were out (no reset - not sure if that was a bluff or not..). (What was the trigger level, I wonder? we didn't set it off). Apart from film trailers in cinemas - where I take foam protectors, the only sound overloads I've had so far as I recall were a county youth orchestra performing Shostakovich in a school hall (quite large school hall, but not big/dampened enough) and the trauma of being taken to Jools Holland and his BIG band at Watford Town Hall, both times not having my foam ear protectors. If I ever had to go live again to Jools (with the same sound man - who had excellent ear protection, I noticed) I'd need better than that. I should have had an app available, like you use, Heldenlaben. I will install one (any Android recommendation?).

I do rather like to listen to some music at elevated levels - such as the Walton, Mahler 1,2,3,8 (in particular), Bruckner, Wagner, Elgar (e.g. "The Kingdom") etc at quite high levels - maybe at approaching concert hall levels, could I suppose be a little more.

I borrowed a decibel meter from a contact who runs an audio company in the professional music field - not sure which - and he lent me a decibel meter but said it was rarely used, and certainly wasn't calibrated. IIRC I reached about 70db, possibly a tad above, at about 3 metres from the speakers (living room). I suppose on the basis of Heldenlaben's post, that is above the generality of concert hall levels. When I get back to indoor live music, not for a few months yet, I'll take some readings with the app...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Hi CS . I use a frequency analyser called spectrum on iPad and a db meter also on IPhone - there are loads of them - they all seem to calibrate well with each other . I’m sure there’ll be android options .
Spectrum is also a frequency analyser do you can amaze (bore ) your friends by accurately whistling 1k tone with no cheating .

70 dba at three metres is perfectly ok . An orchestra playing FF in say a Big Shostakovich symphony in an acoustic like the RFH would comfortably get up to mid nineties dba in the loudest bits maybe louder. Once heard the LPO in Prokofiev 5 in the front row - I reckon that went louder.
Classical music with its wide dynamic range is unlikely to be a problem unless you are a player (e.g. viola, woodwind ) directly in front of the brass - and those days they usually have acoustic protection.. Rock music because of the huge compression is a different matter . There’s a calculator on the HSE website into which you input dba levels and times periods and it works out if there’s a potential problem . Of the top of my head I think 8 hours of 85dba plus is the action level but wouldn’t want to be categoric. I’ve been in London restaurants ( all those years ago) and seen the levels constantly above 85 - the waiters should be wearing ear defenders really.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I've had what I take to be tinnitus after hammering, using power tools etc and where I am in overload situations (relative's noisy engine, etc) have worn cheap heaphone style ear defenders or the foam plugs in my go everywhere rucksack. I had tinnitus for two days after the the Jools concert - the music involved and the performance was enjoyable, but the sound overload frequently caused me real auditory distress.

I've never done live music like that, the reason why my experience needed widening. Nor have I done rock concerts - and jazz in a pub I retreated to the garden and heard plenty. I have, in the past, done Roots / Folk - Dolores Keane/ June Tabor come to mind

At the Jools Holland I was struck that for most of the audience it seemed perfectly comfortable and energising. When, almost the highlight of the evening, Ruby Turner sang "Peace in the Valley" - which I hoped she would sing - it was just overload and gross distortion to my ears. A few days later I listened to her on Y Tube doing the same (extract from the Beeb New Year's Eve) and of course it was possible to hear the piece properly. Incidentally, I was one row behind the cordoned off sound / control desk and 8 feet to the side. On reflection, for all I know, the sound man had a hearing aid in his ears?

I need to organise better in-ear protectors ready for the next live music I am taken to, to "widen my horizon", which I am not averse to in principle.

Thanks for the tips Heldenlaben. I'll play with the Android apps. I recently went to a leading pharmacy chain for a 15 minute hearing test, hoping that I would actually prove to have something as simple as earwax build up.... In fact I have no need for a hearing aid, and am only losing slight awareness of upper frequencies - of words beginning "f" and "th" - which if I am engaged in conversation, I do hear well enough. That's encouraging. The downside is that I am back to "not listening" as far as Mrs CS is concerned........

The tester didn't respond to my report of intolerance of high frequencies in certain types of music - soprano's etc on portable radios, or solo flute music tootling around in high frequencies which is an instant "off button" for me these days...... There is a limit for what you get in a free 15 minute session I suppose and I can still listen to a decent soprano live, or on my main speaker system and I can live without flute music........

[Ein Heldenleben]

I've had what I take to be tinnitus after hammering, using power tools etc and where I am in overload situations (relative's noisy engine, etc) have worn cheap heaphone style ear defenders or the foam plugs in my go everywhere rucksack. I had tinnitus for two days after the the Jools concert - the music involved and the performance was enjoyable, but the sound overload frequently caused me real auditory distress.

I've never done live music like that, the reason why my experience needed widening. Nor have I done rock concerts - and jazz in a pub I retreated to the garden and heard plenty. I have, in the past, done Roots / Folk - Dolores Keane/ June Tabor come to mind

At the Jools Holland I was struck that for most of the audience it seemed perfectly comfortable and energising. When, almost the highlight of the evening, Ruby Turner sang "Peace in the Valley" - which I hoped she would sing - it was just overload and gross distortion to my ears. A few days later I listened to her on Y Tube doing the same (extract from the Beeb New Year's Eve) and of course it was possible to hear the piece properly. Incidentally, I was one row behind the cordoned off sound / control desk and 8 feet to the side. On reflection, for all I know, the sound man had a hearing aid in his ears?

I need to organise better in-ear protectors ready for the next live music I am taken to, to "widen my horizon", which I am not averse to in principle.

Thanks for the tips Heldenlaben. I'll play with the Android apps. I recently went to a leading pharmacy chain for a 15 minute hearing test, hoping that I would actually prove to have something as simple as earwax build up.... In fact I have no need for a hearing aid, and am only losing slight awareness of upper frequencies - of words beginning "f" and "th" - which if I am engaged in conversation, I do hear well enough. That's encouraging. The downside is that I am back to "not listening" as far as Mrs CS is concerned........

The tester didn't respond to my report of intolerance of high frequencies in certain types of music - soprano's etc on portable radios, or solo flute music tootling around in high frequencies which is an instant "off button" for me these days...... There is a limit for what you get in a free 15 minute session I suppose and I can still listen to a decent soprano live, or on my main speaker system and I can live without flute music........

If you are concerned I would really recommend in -ear foam protectors at any amplified concert. I wish I had used them when younger and also had avoided wearing headphones so much . My tinnitus got really bad after going to a heavy metal festival with my son 12 years ago - and I was wearing in ear protectors. Though equally it could have been the result of a series of ear infections.
.You can get your GP to refer you for a detailed acoustic test done usually at the local hospital which will do a frequency sweep to show loss at each frequency. It only looks at speech frequencies and thus goes up to 8 KHZ . Music will have higher frequencies in the over tones. The top note on a piano is about 4Kkhz. When I had my ears tested the tinnitus affected ear had the better hearing in fact.

[gradus]

The only classical music I've ever heard live that was too loud was Mahler 8 at the RFH heard mid-stalls and very uncomfortable indeed.
Some jazz gigs especially the ones that lean towards latin/funk/soul in style can be too loud for comfort and I have had to leave left one concert in of all places Snape when a latin jazz band was being amplified to deafening levels - half the audience did the same.
I didn't know db level meters were downloadable so will give them a go in my listening space which is biggish with high ceilings and where I tend to keep volume levels down partly because old-ish Quad gear wasn't built for deafening loudness and partly because the acoustic is on the lively side, it'll be interesting to see what large scale orchestral stuff peaks at in there.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The only classical music I've ever heard live that was too loud was Mahler 8 at the RFH heard mid-stalls and very uncomfortable indeed.
Some jazz gigs especially the ones that lean towards latin/funk/soul in style can be too loud for comfort and I have had to leave left one concert in of all places Snape when a latin jazz band was being amplified to deafening levels - half the audience did the same.
I didn't know db level meters were downloadable so will give them a go in my listening space which is biggish with high ceilings and where I tend to keep volume levels down partly because old-ish Quad gear wasn't built for deafening loudness and partly because the acoustic is on the lively side, it'll be interesting to see what large scale orchestral stuff peaks at in there.

Yep Machito at Ronnie’s in the 80’s - now there was a band and not too loud . Whereas the Buddy Rich Big Band at the same venue was I think largely unamplified (maybe just piano Bass ) and that was LOUD .
But pales into insignificance compared to the WHO at Charlton in the 70’s which was briefly in the Guinness book of records for worlds loudest concert I think.
But none of them as loud as the Download festival I went to - when the sound waves are making your ribs throb you know there’s a problem . It was so loud that both Bass and drums were distorting the system. I don’t need nice Marshall amp guitar distortion I mean full on ugly distortion .
Marshall Amps must have handed out the bonuses that year - never seen so much of their stuff on stage .

[gradus]

Inspired by Heldenleben, I downloaded an Android level meter (free) to see what levels I listen at. Turns out that I replayed last night's Prom at an average 65db peaking at 86db. To achieve these levels which were about normal for me in my listening room (c.30x15) I didn't need 11 on the Quad amp and neither did my now-venerable ELS63's complain about the load. Louder and I think the lively room would start to be influential.
I'd be interested to hear what readings others listen at, especially if they're 'opening-out' recorded sound.

[goldnet]

I listened to the Roth again this morning. Once you get past the introduction it gains some momentum and coherence. My problem with it is one that I have with all Chamber sized groups in this music, HIPP or modern instruments, and that is that the tradeoff for an increase in speed and agility is offset but a feeling of excessive lightness. Since my first and only recording of this piece for my formative listening years was Furtwangler, who builds sound from the ground up, I just expect a certain sort of mass, and the tradeoff for that tends to be a loss of speed. It is a tricky balance, and for me the Eroica is the most difficult Beethoven Symphony to get right. However that caveat certainly isn't unique to this Conductor or Orchestra

I didn't like the spread chords but it is a feature of Roth's reading - he did the same with the Concertgebouw in summer and I believe also with the LSO last week - I wasn't there but the concert will be streamed by Marquee TV from 2 December.

As Roth is through and through a scholarly musician, his interpretive decisions are likely to be based in history, fact or study of the scores, rather than an idiosyncratic whim. I have not yet found the source for the spread chords - apart from an allusion to Czerny in connection with Beethoven's own playing of the 4th piano concerto, which is roughly contemporary with the Eroica, although the public premiere didn't come until 1808 in a concert which also premiered the 5th and 6th symphonies. I have never heard them played this way by anyone else.

I do enjoy the whipcrack opening but also accept that one likes what one is used to! Roth's performances often bring something new to my ears in works I have listened to and known for decades. At present, I must confess this is the first "new-ism" I haven't taken to in his performances! I am willing to listen again to overcome my familiarity bias before making a final decision!