Karajan and the Philharmonia

[silvestrione]

Karajan’s Philharmonia recordings seem to be generally highly-regarded; as are his early BPO recordings.

Karajan’s attitude to the orchestra was, apparently, slightly dismissive. He once likened them to a student orchestra, because they lacked the instinct for ‘cutting loose’ (or something). One of their deps (Peter Gibbs) famously mounted a verbal attack on von K for keeping an American audience waiting and then refusing to take a bow/do an encore: that may have coloured his perception of the band.

There are advocates for both early and late Karajan, on here, I'm glad to say (myself among them), though if forced to choose, I'd go for 50s with the Philharmonia, and the 60s with the BPO.

'Chandlers Ford', eh? The train used to stop there, on the Ringwood branch line, I think.

[Petrushka]

Karajan’s attitude to the orchestra was, apparently, slightly dismissive. He once likened them to a student orchestra, because they lacked the instinct for ‘cutting loose’ (or something).

Have you any reference for this assertion? I may have missed it in Richard Osborne's Karajan biography or Stephen Pettit's book on the Philharmonia where I can find nothing other than that he was impressed with them from the start. Karajan would have been unlikely to have remained with the orchestra for so long if he had that attitude.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

There are advocates for both early and late Karajan, on here, I'm glad to say (myself among them), though if forced to choose, I'd go for 50s with the Philharmonia, and the 60s with the BPO.

'Chandlers Ford', eh? The train used to stop there, on the Ringwood branch line, I think.

Trains still stop there, but the Ringwood branch line may be a bit out, as it's between Salisbury and Eastleigh, so further north and east.

[Barbirollians]

Karajan’s Philharmonia recordings seem to be generally highly-regarded; as are his early BPO recordings.

Karajan’s attitude to the orchestra was, apparently, slightly dismissive. He once likened them to a student orchestra, because they lacked the instinct for ‘cutting loose’ (or something). One of their deps (Peter Gibbs) famously mounted a verbal attack on von K for keeping an American audience waiting and then refusing to take a bow/do an encore: that may have coloured his perception of the band.

Somewhat odd if he did say that as HVK was the arch control freak of orchestras and the last thing would have wanted that they cut loose - unless he told them too of course !!!

[ChandlersFord]

Have you any reference for this assertion? I may have missed it in Richard Osborne's Karajan biography or Stephen Pettit's book on the Philharmonia where I can find nothing other than that he was impressed with them from the start. Karajan would have been unlikely to have remained with the orchestra for so long if he had that attitude.

I remember reading it in Osborne, which I don't have to hand atm. The remarks were made some years after his Philharmonia tenure had finished.

I don't agree with him, fwiw. He was at his best with the Philarhmonia (and the early days of the BPO). Legge's orchestra was the only Karajan band which 'never served soup.' :)

[silvestrione]

Somewhat odd if he did say that as HVK was the arch control freak of orchestras and the last thing would have wanted that they cut loose - unless he told them too of course !!!

This to me all seems to refer to the last period of Karajan's work with the Philharmonia. The Gibb incident was on that last American tour, when HvK behaved abominably by all accounts, really wanting out (already with the BPO). In his interviews with RO, he says something like he had gone as far as he could (or found he couldn't get further in the way he wanted to) with the Philharmonia, and felt that the BPO and VPO would take him further. (And not always a control freak therefore: try his live VPO recordings to see what he means, e.g. Salzburg Bruckner 5).

[HighlandDougie]

There is a reference in Richard Osborne (either the biography or the conversations) to, "Herbert von Karajan: My Autobiography", based on conversations with Franz Endler, in which RO says that HvK talks in more detail about his relationship with the Philharmonia. I haven't read it and, although I might be tempted to spend 33p on a copy (plus P&P) from Amazon, I wonder if anyone here has read it? While HvK's relationship with the orchestra had deteriorated by the time of the last American tour and the final - infamous - Boston concert, one of his answers to a question from RO about the ability of the players is interesting, "Very gifted, but in the early days the ensemble was not always very good. We had to work on it a great deal. And here I had the advantage of at least twenty years already in the profession". So, with what was a recently established ensemble (first concert under Beecham in 1945), the assertion about HvK likening it to a student orchestra is possible, although given the calibre of the players and the fact that they had just come through a world war come through, maybe just a touch implausible.

This exchange has had the beneficial effect of my getting down the RO biography from the shelves and wasting the afternoon reading great chunks of it. It is even better than I had remembered.

[Petrushka]

There is a reference in Richard Osborne (either the biography or the conversations) to, "Herbert von Karajan: My Autobiography", based on conversations with Franz Endler, in which RO says that HvK talks in more detail about his relationship with the Philharmonia. I haven't read it and, although I might be tempted to spend 33p on a copy (plus P&P) from Amazon, I wonder if anyone here has read it? While HvK's relationship with the orchestra had deteriorated by the time of the last American tour and the final - infamous - Boston concert, one of his answers to a question from RO about the ability of the players is interesting, "Very gifted, but in the early days the ensemble was not always very good. We had to work on it a great deal. And here I had the advantage of at least twenty years already in the profession". So, with what was a recently established ensemble (first concert under Beecham in 1945), the assertion about HvK likening it to a student orchestra is possible, although given the calibre of the players and the fact that they had just come through a world war come through, maybe just a touch implausible.

This exchange has had the beneficial effect of my getting down the RO biography from the shelves and wasting the afternoon reading great chunks of it. It is even better than I had remembered.

I have the Franz Endler book and haven't read it since I had it, possibly as a Christmas present, more than 30 years ago. The Philharmonia reference is on page 70, goes into some interesting detail about those early days and isn't by any means as disparaging as it appeared in the previous post. Context is everything.

Karajan says that there were 14 ex-leaders amongst the first violins and this caused problems at first as it was difficult for them to lose the instinct to lead and become a rank-and-file violinist. He then goes on to say that the Philharmonia were technically perfect from the go. Then he says this:

'Once a work had been rehearsed with the players, you knew exactly what it would sound like at the concert...I know of a good comparison: the London players were just like a youth orchestra. You can have wonderful rehearsal sessions with them...but at the evening concert they play with exactly the same enthusiasm as at the rehearsal - they're not yet capable of outstripping themselves'.

There is nothing dismissive about any of this. It's the sign of a great conductor who knows his craft. Incidentally, the Endler book looks more than worth the Amazon price and I'll read it again.

[Barbirollians]

I have the Franz Endler book and haven't read it since I had it, possibly as a Christmas present, more than 30 years ago. The Philharmonia reference is on page 70, goes into some interesting detail about those early days and isn't by any means as disparaging as it appeared in the previous post. Context is everything.

Karajan says that there were 14 ex-leaders amongst the first violins and this caused problems at first as it was difficult for them to lose the instinct to lead and become a rank-and-file violinist. He then goes on to say that the Philharmonia were technically perfect from the go. Then he says this:

'Once a work had been rehearsed with the players, you knew exactly what it would sound like at the concert...I know of a good comparison: the London players were just like a youth orchestra. You can have wonderful rehearsal sessions with them...but at the evening concert they play with exactly the same enthusiasm as at the rehearsal - they're not yet capable of outstripping themselves'.

There is nothing dismissive about any of this. It's the sign of a great conductor who knows his craft. Incidentally, the Endler book looks more than worth the Amazon price and I'll read it again.

Some might argue that was how the Philharmonia played for Karajan but not necessarily for others - but without having been at the rehearsals of Toscanini's RFH Brahms or Furtwangler's Lucerne Beethoven 9 for example who knows. Are there any recordings of the Philharmonia in rehearsal and then in performance of the same piece ? I suppose the Cantelli recording rehearsals on his Icon set don't really count.

[silvestrione]

I have the Franz Endler book and haven't read it since I had it, possibly as a Christmas present, more than 30 years ago. The Philharmonia reference is on page 70, goes into some interesting detail about those early days and isn't by any means as disparaging as it appeared in the previous post. Context is everything.

Karajan says that there were 14 ex-leaders amongst the first violins and this caused problems at first as it was difficult for them to lose the instinct to lead and become a rank-and-file violinist. He then goes on to say that the Philharmonia were technically perfect from the go. Then he says this:

'Once a work had been rehearsed with the players, you knew exactly what it would sound like at the concert...I know of a good comparison: the London players were just like a youth orchestra. You can have wonderful rehearsal sessions with them...but at the evening concert they play with exactly the same enthusiasm as at the rehearsal - they're not yet capable of outstripping themselves'.

There is nothing dismissive about any of this. It's the sign of a great conductor who knows his craft. Incidentally, the Endler book looks more than worth the Amazon price and I'll read it again.

Ah yes, that was it, that was what I was remembering from somewhere, 'they're not yet capable of outstripping themselves'...the implied comparison being with BPO and VPO. Not sure about the BPO, but I think you can sense it happening in some of the live VPO recordings. By the way, are there any live recordings of Karajan and the Philharmonia?

[Petrushka]

By the way, are there any live recordings of Karajan and the Philharmonia?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Herbert-von-Karajan-Tchaikovsky-Philharmonia/dp/B0757G5FHB/ref=sr_1_7?crid=1KSOY62MWHEJN&keywords=karajan+philharmonia&qid=1646484210&s=music&sprefix=karajan+philharmonia%2Cclassical%2C80&sr=1-7

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Herbert-von-Karajan-conducts-Mozart/dp/B00L5J4Q7I/ref=sr_1_3?crid=K3UQ7DW5SI6S&keywords=karajan+philharmonia+mozart&qid=1646484378&s=music&sprefix=karajan+philharmonia+mozart%2Cpopular%2C57&sr=1-3

[Maclintick]

The Gibb incident was on that last American tour, when HvK behaved abominably by all accounts, really wanting out (already with the BPO).

Robert Meyer's reminiscence of that Baltimore (Boston ?) incident:

https://robertmeyer.wordpress.com/tag/peter-gibbs/

Curiously, a different version of the incident appears in the wiki entry on Peter Gibbs' mysterious disappearance in 1975...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mull_Air_Mystery

For anyone who missed the programme, Steve Punt's Punt PI edition is still available on Sounds:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b066fqcr

[silvestrione]

Robert Meyer's reminiscence of that Baltimore (Boston ?) incident:

https://robertmeyer.wordpress.com/tag/peter-gibbs/

Curiously, a different version of the incident appears in the wiki entry on Peter Gibbs' mysterious disappearance in 1975...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mull_Air_Mystery

For anyone who missed the programme, Steve Punt's Punt PI edition is still available on Sounds:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b066fqcr

Thanks for those links. Seems to be quite a few differing accounts of that incident!

[Barbirollians]

Thanks for those links. Seems to be quite a few differing accounts of that incident!

Robert Meyer was obviously there but his other recollections cannot be accurate. The concert must have taken place before 1957 as Dennis Brain is mentioned and HVK continued making recordings with the Philharmonia until 1960 though he did join the BPO in 1957 as I recall and made for example the Dvorak 9 recording referred to above.

[gradus]

Robert Meyer's reminiscence of that Baltimore (Boston ?) incident:

https://robertmeyer.wordpress.com/tag/peter-gibbs/

Curiously, a different version of the incident appears in the wiki entry on Peter Gibbs' mysterious disappearance in 1975...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mull_Air_Mystery

For anyone who missed the programme, Steve Punt's Punt PI edition is still available on Sounds:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b066fqcr

The Punt programme is fascinating, many thanks for posting it.