HIP-influenced recordings on modern instruments

[cloughie]

Do you ever actually read my posts....(including #13 above.....?!)

I've always encouraged a broad take on classical performance practice and interpretation whilst carefully clarifying and exemplifying my own preferences....which change through time, like many listeners' do......yet again, I sometimes wonder why I bother.

Who on earth said those great conductors "all got it wrong"? Not me (with shelves full of so many of them....)....
Nor most Gramophone reviewers either old or new.....

Never seen my posts on Bruckner, from Knappertsbusch and Andreae to Venzago and Dausgaard?

Especially in 2020 the simplest way of putting it is that as each Beethoven cycle appears and becomes heard and known, the perspective on recorded history subtly shifts in the ears and minds of those who care to listen to, and reflect upon them..........

Ref #10 condemning of those who disagree with you? Whether you mean to or not you do appear rather intolerant of those who do not share your views on the new ‘boys or girls’ on the rostrum whose new interpretations are the best yet.

[jayne lee wilson]

Ref #10 condemning of those who disagree with you? Whether you mean to or not you do appear rather intolerant of those who do not share your views on the new ‘boys or girls’ on the rostrum whose new interpretations are the best yet.

My ref. to "peremptory dismissal" was (inter alia) to 210 here.....

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?21265-Bal-8-02-20-13-6-20-Mozart-Symphony-no-39-in-E-flat-K-543/page22

Your reductio in #8 above, and your own and other hyperbole here....

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?21265-Bal-8-02-20-13-6-20-Mozart-Symphony-no-39-in-E-flat-K-543/page21

..which as you see I tried (as so so often...) to answer carefully, with examples...

Your own attempt to contextualise the tempo for Beethoven 9(iii) as a "hippie" characteristic (see #12 above) was also inaccurate, as I exemplified. Not to mention your own intolerant, as yet unexplained accusation of "mindlessness" directed towards.... well, why don't YOU tell US which reviewers, performers or listeners...?
Nor did you clarify who was supposed to have stated, or suggested, that all those great conductors you listed in #14 "all got it wrong".
Exaggeration again, and intolerance of your own.
As for new kids with the best interpretations.... I'm sure Jacobs (see Mozart 39) would be flattered by such a youthful description, but both he and the modern-instrument new kid Richard Tognetti (whose Mozart I also love) have been around for a while now....

And much else besides.
I once tried (just last year IIRC) to describe the history and variety of early pianos in some detail, Grafs to Bosendorfers etc, only to be told that fortepianos sounded like "sparky's magic piano..."
Many others like this over many years.

***
But the broader and more interesting point is that "HIPP" whilst an unavoidably useful acronym, isn't as easy to define (or distinguish from "traditional") as we might like to think. Take Thomas Fey: the more closely you listen to his wonderful recordings, the clearer it becomes why he names his two greatest influences as.... Bernstein and Harnoncourt.
So Fey's Haydn or Mendelssohn is "Historically Informed" for sure... but this isn't only about the instruments (a mix of modern/period in Heidelberg) or their manner of address.
I wonder, too, if the shade of Mengelberg (full Symphony Orchestra, Amsterdam 1940) isn't hovering at Adam Fischer's shoulder (Chamber Orchestra, Copenhagen 2016-19) when he conducts Beethoven.

[mikealdren]

I think also they have the added interest of being recorded in the Esterhazy Palace.

When I visited the palace soon afterwards, they were playing excerpts in the hall for which they were written using good equipment - it was memorable.

[richardfinegold]

My ref. to "peremptory dismissal" was (inter alia) to 210 here.....

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?21265-Bal-8-02-20-13-6-20-Mozart-Symphony-no-39-in-E-flat-K-543/page22

Your reductio in #8 above, and your own and other hyperbole here....

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?21265-Bal-8-02-20-13-6-20-Mozart-Symphony-no-39-in-E-flat-K-543/page21

..which as you see I tried (as so so often...) to answer carefully, with examples...

Your own attempt to contextualise the tempo for Beethoven 9(iii) as a "hippie" characteristic (see #12 above) was also inaccurate, as I exemplified. Not to mention your own intolerant, as yet unexplained accusation of "mindlessness" directed towards.... well, why don't YOU tell US which reviewers, performers or listeners...?
Nor did you clarify who was supposed to have stated, or suggested, that all those great conductors you listed in #14 "all got it wrong".
Exaggeration again, and intolerance of your own.
As for new kids with the best interpretations.... I'm sure Jacobs (see Mozart 39) would be flattered by such a youthful description, but both he and the modern-instrument new kid Richard Tognetti (whose Mozart I also love) have been around for a while now....

And much else besides.
I once tried (just last year IIRC) to describe the history and variety of early pianos in some detail, Grafs to Bosendorfers etc, only to be told that fortepianos sounded like "sparky's magic piano..."
Many others like this over many years.

***
But the broader and more interesting point is that "HIPP" whilst an unavoidably useful acronym, isn't as easy to define (or distinguish from "traditional") as we might like to think. Take Thomas Fey: the more closely you listen to his wonderful recordings, the clearer it becomes why he names his two greatest influences as.... Bernstein and Harnoncourt.
So Fey's Haydn or Mendelssohn is "Historically Informed" for sure... but this isn't only about the instruments (a mix of modern/period in Heidelberg) or their manner of address.
I wonder, too, if the shade of Mengelberg (full Symphony Orchestra, Amsterdam 1940) isn't hovering at Adam Fischer's shoulder (Chamber Orchestra, Copenhagen 2016-19) when he conducts Beethoven.

I haven’t heard Fisher’s or “Mangleberg” in Beethoven but have heard the Dutchman in Tchaikovsky. It was, to say the least, idiosyncratic-maybe he can claim Curentzis as a disciple—but Adam Fisher never struck me as one who goes particularly wayward, either in Haydn or Mahler. I’ll look for his Beethoven on Qobuz

[BBMmk2]

Has anyone mentioned the way how Sir Charles Mackerras conducted Beethoven’s 9th? A very good interpretation, using modern instruments in a HIPP fashion.

[Barbirollians]

Some such performances are much more successful than others. - For example - I remain very taken with Andrew Manze's recent coupling of Beethoven 5 and 7 - but did not like Chailly's Eroica one bit - the funeral march more like a brisk early morning run.

[MickyD]

When I visited the palace soon afterwards, they were playing excerpts in the hall for which they were written using good equipment - it was memorable.

Oh, lucky you, Mike, that must have been a wonderful experience.

[verismissimo]

When Rattle took on the BPO, he insisted that he retain his association with the OAE (which had existed since the early days of that orchestra). The results are evident in the changing/changed playing of the Berlin band.

[silvestrione]

When Rattle took on the BPO, he insisted that he retain his association with the OAE (which had existed since the early days of that orchestra). The results are evident in the changing/changed playing of the Berlin band.

Could you expand, Veri? I think I know what you mean in their Mozart symphonies, but the recent Beethoven set, which I love, I'm not so sure I see the HIPP influence, but that means little, probably just missing it. At one point I got the impression that the Berliners, and the BPO musical environment, became a little resistant to Rattle's moves in this area, and indeed the BPO Beethoven set does not have the slightly uncomfortable halfway feel of the earlier VPO set.

Rattle's performances with the OAE and the BPO of similar repertoire could be vastly different, e.g. in Berlioz.

[verismissimo]

Could you expand, Veri? I think I know what you mean in their Mozart symphonies, but the recent Beethoven set, which I love, I'm not so sure I see the HIPP influence, but that means little, probably just missing it. At one point I got the impression that the Berliners, and the BPO musical environment, became a little resistant to Rattle's moves in this area, and indeed the BPO Beethoven set does not have the slightly uncomfortable halfway feel of the earlier VPO set …

Interesting … I hadn't made that Berlin/Vienna Beethoven comparison. Nevertheless, Rattle's Berlin Beethoven remains a long way from Furtwangler or Karajan.

[jayne lee wilson]

Interesting … I hadn't made that Berlin/Vienna Beethoven comparison. Nevertheless, Rattle's Berlin Beethoven remains a long way from Furtwangler or Karajan.

This does tempt the response "what exactly do you mean by that...?..."

(As I said in #17 etc above, the whole concept of HIPPs is far more complex and problematic than it may appear if easy labelling is used...)

[LHC]

Could you expand, Veri? I think I know what you mean in their Mozart symphonies, but the recent Beethoven set, which I love, I'm not so sure I see the HIPP influence, but that means little, probably just missing it. At one point I got the impression that the Berliners, and the BPO musical environment, became a little resistant to Rattle's moves in this area, and indeed the BPO Beethoven set does not have the slightly uncomfortable halfway feel of the earlier VPO set.

Rattle's performances with the OAE and the BPO of similar repertoire could be vastly different, e.g. in Berlioz.

There is a video on Youtube of Simon Rattle's performance of Das Rheingold with the OAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUFWNKFajjA Its strikingly different to his performances of the Ring with the BPO and at the Wiener Staatsoper. Its a shame he didn't continue with this; I think a complete performance of the Ring with the OAE would have been fascinating.