HIP-influenced recordings on modern instruments

[verismissimo]

I've just got around to Adam Fischer and his Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra in FJH's Sturm und Drang symphonies. I've been avoiding them for years.

Why bother, when I have Dorati, Bernstein, Szell etc on one side and Solomons, Hogwood, Bruggen etc on the other? But these Austro-Hungarians are absolutely terrific IMO, really making beloved Haydn come alive.

And of course, they're not alone: Tonhalle/Zinman in Beethoven, SCO/Mackerras in Mozart and Brahms, Swedish Chamber O/Dausgaard in Schumann …

[jayne lee wilson]

You should hear Adam Fischer's Beethoven Cycle with the Danish CO (Naxos). You may not "go with" all the very individual interpretative decisions but at least you'll never be bored....(something of a modern day Mengelbergian.....)

I did a 3-way comparison of the Beethoven 1 Finale.... DCO/Fischer, Malmo SO/Trevino, OWA/Haselbock.....

And the entirely subjective result was......

Fischer ahead for consistent, ear-catching interpretive interest....
Haselbock compelling for orchestral timbre/transparency and dynamic/rhythmical attack/drama....marvellous acoustic. (One Beethoven knew and preferred).

Trevino.... well payed and recorded, lively & uptospeed but.... just too generalised, lacking distinctiveness....

Like Harnoncourt with the COE or CMW, Dausgaard is a musical God for me now... all of his Schumann, Schubert, the Bruckner 2, much of it on SACD... .....you know his recent Bergen Bruckner 6? Hungry for more, but who knows when or if it will ever happen now?

So many examples of what I call HIPPS-moderne (HIPPS-ancien would be period instruments), but I must mention Thomas Fey once again, whose Heidelberger Sinfoniker Haydn series is massive with me.... he tends to combine modern strings/winds with period drums/brass. Audacious perhaps, but the often very mischievous musical results are both lovable & startling...

[MickyD]

I've just got around to Adam Fischer and his Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra in FJH's Sturm und Drang symphonies. I've been avoiding them for years.

Why bother, when I have Dorati, Bernstein, Szell etc on one side and Solomons, Hogwood, Bruggen etc on the other? But these Austro-Hungarians are absolutely terrific IMO, really making beloved Haydn come alive.

And of course, they're not alone: Tonhalle/Zinman in Beethoven, SCO/Mackerras in Mozart and Brahms, Swedish Chamber O/Dausgaard in Schumann …

I think also they have the added interest of being recorded in the Esterhazy Palace.

[jayne lee wilson]

JEG doing Schumann & Mendelssohn with the LSO, Norrington's Haydn with the SWR...this is something I've spent many rewarding listening sessions dwelling upon..... the whole point is to play and hear the music "with new ears".... a historical perspective used creatively...

[Bryn]

JEG doing Schumann & Mendelssohn with the LSO, Norrington's Haydn with the SWR...this is something I've spent many rewarding listening sessions dwelling upon..... the whole point is to play and hear the music "with new ears".... a historical perspective used creatively...

Regarding the Norrington/SWR Haydn, I also find their Haydn DVD a delight 'from start to finish', as it were.

[mathias broucek]

I would put in a plea for Holliger’s outstanding Schumann with the WDR. It includes ALL the orchestral and concertante music and is thrilling. I might even prefer it to Dausgaard.

[richardfinegold]

It seems to me that at least on recent recordings, it’s hard not to find HIPP influence when modern instruments are used. Most conductors active today have been influenced by the movement, and some of them were HIPP specialists before transitioning out of a HIPP pigeonhole and into a conventional setting. Harnoncort, Norrington, Brueggen, JEG, Manze, and a many others wound up with the keys to the Orchestras the likes of the Vienna Philharmonic, the Concertgebouw, the LSO, and so forth. Other Conductors such as Rattle have adopted HIPP techniques.

[cloughie]

It seems to me that at least on recent recordings, it’s hard not to find HIPP influence when modern instruments are used. Most conductors active today have been influenced by the movement, and some of them were HIPP specialists before transitioning out of a HIPP pigeonhole and into a conventional setting. Harnoncort, Norrington, Brueggen, JEG, Manze, and a many others wound up with the keys to the Orchestras the likes of the Vienna Philharmonic, the Concertgebouw, the LSO, and so forth. Other Conductors such as Rattle have adopted HIPP techniques.

...or they just play them faster!

[Bryn]

...or they just play them faster!

Rather than playing them much slower than the composers intended and often clearly indicated.

[jayne lee wilson]

It seems to me that at least on recent recordings, it’s hard not to find HIPP influence when modern instruments are used. Most conductors active today have been influenced by the movement, and some of them were HIPP specialists before transitioning out of a HIPP pigeonhole and into a conventional setting. Harnoncort, Norrington, Brueggen, JEG, Manze, and a many others wound up with the keys to the Orchestras the likes of the Vienna Philharmonic, the Concertgebouw, the LSO, and so forth. Other Conductors such as Rattle have adopted HIPP techniques.

Absolutely. And what wonderfully varied and distinctive results they achieved with such orchestras - who were broadminded and imaginative enough to go with such creative adventures.

Shame some of their admirers on here couldn't go with that... rather than (as we see again now on the Mozart 39 thread) lapsing repeatedly into peremptory, ignorant dismissal.

[cloughie]

Rather than playing them much slower than the composers intended and often clearly indicated.

Yes but they got away with it for years with excellent results!

[cloughie]

Absolutely. And what wonderfully varied and distinctive results they achieved with such orchestras - who were broadminded and imaginative enough to go with such creative adventures.

Shame some of their admirers on here couldn't go with that... rather than (as we see again now on the Mozart 39 thread) lapsing repeatedly into peremptory, ignorant dismissal.

Maybe no more so than the hippies who trash the past - personally I like both but certain things like rushing the 3rd movement of the Choral or the funeral march of the Eroica. Hipp versions can be a refreshing change but alongside others not mindlessly replacing them.

[jayne lee wilson]

Maybe no more so than the hippies who trash the past - personally I like both but certain things like rushing the 3rd movement of the Choral or the funeral march of the Eroica. Hipp versions can be a refreshing change but alongside others not mindlessly replacing them.

Not sure which mindless performers or listeners you have in mind....

One might think of Giovanni Antonini as an out-and-out historical specialist - of course he is, but I still very fondly recall a Beethoven 2 he did with a reduced Berlin Philharmonic as long ago as 2011, still available in the DCH....Pinnock did some excellent Mozart with them around then as well, directing from the harpsichord.......
Likewise Emmanelle Haïm with Rameau and Handel...

Faster tempi for the Beethoven 9(iii) aren't so novel are they? Toscanini NBC 1939 has 13'02.... SWR Norrington 12'07, ORR/JEG 12'05...etc...
Leibowitz 1961 (mentioned elsewhere today) takes 12'28.....

[cloughie]

Not sure which mindless performers or listeners you have in mind....

Choose your own. You miss the point - did Klemperer, Barbirolli, Boult, Krips, Jochum, E Kleiber, Mehta, Maazel, Kempe, Kertesz, Martinon, Leinsdorf, van Beinum, Munch, Monteux, Reiner, Ansermet, Munchinger, Marriner, Leppard, Karajan, even Uncle Bernie all got it wrong or were some of these great recordings of the past well worth keeping - I think so but you seem to have doubts Jayne!

[jayne lee wilson]

Choose your own. You miss the point - did Klemperer, Barbirolli, Boult, Krips, Jochum, E Kleiber, Mehta, Maazel, Kempe, Kertesz, Martinon, Leinsdorf, van Beinum, Munch, Monteux, Reiner, Ansermet, Munchinger, Marriner, Leppard, Karajan, even Uncle Bernie all got it wrong or were some of these great recordings of the past well worth keeping - I think so but you seem to have doubts Jayne!

Do you ever actually read my posts....(including #13 above.....?!)

I've always encouraged a broad take on classical performance practice and interpretation whilst carefully clarifying and exemplifying my own preferences....which change through time, like many listeners' do......yet again, I sometimes wonder why I bother.

Who on earth said those great conductors "all got it wrong"? Not me (with shelves full of so many of them....)....
Nor most Gramophone reviewers either old or new.....

Never seen my posts on Bruckner, from Knappertsbusch and Andreae to Venzago and Dausgaard?

Especially in 2020 the simplest way of putting it is that as each Beethoven cycle appears and becomes heard and known, the perspective on recorded history subtly shifts in the ears and minds of those who care to listen to, and reflect upon them..........