Originally posted by jayne lee wilson
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I'm puzzled too. The recording details on the discs say the same thing –all four done in the Musikverein. -
I'm with JLW and makropulos also, based on a search of the VPO's online archive for the Brahms symphonies conducted by Bernstein during that period:Originally posted by makropulos View Post
February 20-22, 1981, Brahms 3:
Oct 3 & 4, 1981, Brahms 1:
Sep 4 & 5, 1982, Brahms 2:
Oct 10 & 11, 1981, Brahms 4:
Bernstein had started on his recording kick with taking his live concerts as the basis for his final period of commercial recordings.Comment
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Regardless, they are to my mind very enjoyable (if you like Bernstein, which I do) recordings.Originally posted by makropulos View PostComment
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I have a vague memory that the Bernstein Brahms 3 got some rough reviews .Originally posted by visualnickmos View PostComment
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Maybe it did. It may have got some good ones too.... who knows ?Originally posted by Barbirollians View PostComment
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Yup. In a slightly less detailed form (months but not days), that's what appears in the big DG Bernstein box in relation to the CDs. The DVDs add on days fore and aft, presumably rehearsals then a bit of patching. All in the Musikvereinsaal. Wouldn't be my choice for a Brahms cycle but à chacun son goût.Originally posted by bluestateprommer View PostI'm with JLW and makropulos also, based on a search of the VPO's online archive for the Brahms symphonies conducted by Bernstein during that period:
February 20-22, 1981, Brahms 3:
Oct 3 & 4, 1981, Brahms 1:
Sep 4 & 5, 1982, Brahms 2:
Oct 10 & 11, 1981, Brahms 4:
Bernstein had started on his recording kick with taking his live concerts as the basis for his final period of commercial recordings.Comment
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A few Gramophone readers might just have an idea....Originally posted by visualnickmos View Post
9/83 (EG), 11/83 (RL -qr), 1/84 (RL).... fairly and carfefully done, as you'd expect...
RL was ..."wholly disappointed" in the 3rd....finding it "intolerably laboured..." and found the set as whole exhibiting "an expressive exaggeration" that "many collectors will find unacceptable"....
He admired the 4th most of all, feeling that "every note means something" despite "an intensity and agogic freedom which might be excessive".... but he still enjoyed a lot of it, and parts of the other symphonies too..
EG felt that "the first three movements of the 3rd take a spacious approach to the point of sluggishness" ....but he praised the finale as "bracing and incisive, like so much else in the set"... if not without some carefully articulated reservations...his original 9/83 review is especially detailed and insightful.Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 03-06-20, 19:51.Comment
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Thanks for your research, Jayne, but to be honest, I don't really care what they say..... I rarely bother reading them, and it hasn't affected my enjoyment (or not, as is sometimes the case!) of my music listening.Comment
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Well it may not affect your enjoyment, fine (but if you hardly ever read them, how would you know? It might well enhance your pleasure).Originally posted by visualnickmos View Post
But perhaps show a little respect for two of the finest, most insightful and knowledgeable reviewers who ever lived?
Without whose magazine the culture of Recorded Classical Music could not have developed as it did, this forum almost certainly wouldn't exist (Radio 3's Record Review was once an unofficial Gramophone of the Air), and without whose example (in The Stereo Record Guide as well as The Gramophone) I would hardly have had a chance to learn how to listen, what to listen to, or or how to write...
The first edition of The Gramophone appeared in April 1923. And any subscriber can go and read Compton Mackenzie's very elegant, very first editorial, right now....beginning...
"io sono il prologo..."
Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 03-06-20, 21:23.Comment
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Thanks for that, Jlw. I had listened through the Bernstein cycle on Qobuz, and agree that it’s far from perfect. I bought it in full knowledge that it has some warts, using an Amazon gift card, it does fill the lacunae in my collection of no Brahms by either Bernstein or the VPO. I have also found that with Bernstein, many recordings that may take a few listenings to assimilate often become favorites over time.Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View PostA few Gramophone readers might just have an idea....
9/83 (EG), 11/83 (RL -qr), 1/84 (RL).... fairly and carfefully done, as you'd expect...
RL was ..."wholly disappointed" in the 3rd....finding it "intolerably laboured..." and found the set as whole exhibiting "an expressive exaggeration" that "many collectors will find unacceptable"....
He admired the 4th most of all, feeling that "every note means something" despite "an intensity and agogic freedom which might be excessive".... but he still enjoyed a lot of it, and parts of the other symphonies too..
EG felt that "the first three movements of the 3rd take a spacious approach to the point of sluggishness" ....but he praised the finale as "bracing and incisive, like so much else in the set"... if not without some carefully articulated reservations...his original 9/83 review is especially detailed and insightful.
I love reading Gramophone now (a few years ago, not so much, I feel it had lapsed in quality when J.J was the Editor) and also read Fanfare. I miss IRC and Classical Music Quarterly. I’ve developed a respect for some critics and a dislike for some others, but have learned that even the opinions of my favorite critics may not be consistent predictors of my own impressions. Streaming is a really useful tool to allow access to music at a relatively low entry cost. I appreciate the critics that supply me with erudition, not necessarily recommendationsComment
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Absolutely. Streaming changes everything. At one time all you had was Gramophone, then you'd hope for some excerpt on RR/Radio 3, rush out to buy....Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
The joy of the Gramophone Archive is exactly that erudition - and imaginative articulacy in the expression of it, of course. Sounds in Retrospect was very important to me too - another primer for listening.
I've shelves full of Bernstein's New York recordings - all the Haydn, the Mahler, DSCH, Sibelius, Ives and other American Music. Inevitably one's feelings about some of the repertoire change through time and experience.
But with the VPO...always more mixed in my response. How often I took down that expensive, heavy, black and white Mahler boxset... only to retire it once again, a little sadly, to its shelf. I would never deny the classic status of some, 5 and 6 especially. But I still always preferred the NYPO in the 6th and much else.Comment
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I missed out on most of Bernstein DG recordings at the time—there was about a decade long stretch in my life during Graduate School and early parenthood when I couldn’t afford to buy recordings and that is when most of those were issued.Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
I was more familiar with his earlier NYP period, and have come across the DG releases in scattershot fashion in subsequent years. I am never sure that Bernstein and the VPO were that simpatico—I cannot get that video of a Mahler recording where the concertmaster tells L.B. that Mahler is “Scheissmuik”—but they must of had some sort of understanding because they worked together for years, and I am intriguedComment
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I think Bernstein’s relationship with the VPO was rather cautious at first because of its reputation for anti-semitism (he made his debut in Vienna with the VSO in 1948, but didn’t conduct the VPO until 1966), but by the time of his DG recordings, he and the orchestra loved each other. He appeared with them every year from his debut up until his death, and in 1982, they awarded him the Ehrenring, a ring of honor symbolizing their “marriage.” When he left the NYPO, he was approached to become the VPO’s music director, but it didn’t come off. The Viennese public also adored him.Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post"I do not approve of anything that tampers with natural ignorance. Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone. The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound. Fortunately in England, at any rate, education produces no effect whatsoever. If it did, it would prove a serious danger to the upper classes, and probably lead to acts of violence in Grosvenor Square."
Lady Bracknell The importance of Being EarnestComment
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Well - it appears I was wrong.Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
I know when Decca recorded (occasionally) in the Musikvereinsaal, they removed some of the seating, but perhaps the hall works best with the audience there. At any rate, these Brahms symphonies do sound extremely good (recording and performance), and are the ones I return to time after time.
In the big VPO Symphony boxset, Bernstein is the conductor in the first two symphonies, but the 3rd and 4th are conducted by Giulini
and Carlos Kleiber. But I think LB's Brahms 4 is the finest of all, with Viennese playing of the finest order..
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I do not know those VPO / Bernstein recordings - I am very fond Oct he Schumann set he made with the VPO and his late Sibelius 1 too.Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View PostWell - it appears I was wrong.
I know when Decca recorded (occasionally) in the Musikvereinsaal, they removed some of the seating, but perhaps the hall works best with the audience there. At any rate, these Brahms symphonies do sound extremely good (recording and performance), and are the ones I return to time after time.
In the big VPO Symphony boxset, Bernstein is the conductor in the first two symphonies, but the 3rd and 4th are conducted by Giulini and Carlos Kleiber. But I think LB's Brahms 4 is the finest of all, with Viennese playing of the finest order..Comment
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