Beethoven Symphony No. 5/Musica Aeterna/Currentzis. Sony 24/96 via Qobuz Studio.

[Bryn]

Boulez is not the first conductor that comes to mind with Beethoven and I suspect that he was not of his agenda and he conducted works not in his regular repertoire were added when he was Chief of the BBCSO and indeed there are BBC Legends live recordings with the great Sir Clifford Curzon of the Emperor and Mozart’s K537 ! The repeats became popular in the 70s when if I recall Carlos Kleiber, Dorati and Solti all included them in recordings but I would need to seek out from the shelves and check!

IIRC, the Boulez was recorded in 1968. I see it I can find the appropriate quote re his student's thesis. Re the other 5th (the concerto) yes, I have that. Quite special in its way, if not exactly up to the Czerny's metronome marks based on his knowledge of Beethoven's intentions, or indeed Beethoven's own time signature for the 'slow' movement (cut time as in the orchestral parts, not common time as in the printed score).

[Barbirollians]

I have an undated Edition Eulenberg sore. In the foreword Prof. dr. Wilth. Altmanm wrote [of the 5th and 6th symphonies]:

On March 4th 1809 Beethoven wrote as follows to Breitkopf & Härtel:- "Both Symphonies dedicated to His Excellency, Count Rasumovsky and His Highness, Prince Lobkowitz - Symphony in C minor op. 60 [printed as op. 67!], and the Symphony in F op. 61 [printed as op. 69!]. You will receive tomorrow a list of small alterations which I have made during performances of the works. When I gave you the compositions I had not heard either of them and one must not try to be above making slight improvements to one's creations."
On March 28th 1809 he wrote again saying:- "Herewith I send the Piano [? probably the word: small] alterations to the Symphonies. Please have the plates corrected at once... You told me of another mistake in the 3rd movement of the C minor Symphony. I cannot remember it so you had better return me the proof with the score. You shall have all back in a day or two." In doing away with the repeat of the whole Scherzo and the Trio, the two "Prima volta" bars before the Coda were left standing in the parts to be used for printing. The engravers must have notified this and the reported it to Beethoven. Whether the publisher's reply to this enquiry of Beethoven of March 28th 1809 never reached the composer, or whether Beethoven simply forgot to write again remains uncertain. At any rate the two bars appeared in the printed parts. Beethoven mentioned the fact some time later and on August 21st 1810 asked for them to be removed. On Oct 15th 1810 he asked again:- "Is the alteration made yet in the 3rd movement of the Symphony - 2 bars too many? I remember vaguely that you asked me about it, but possibly I forgot to answer you at once, and that is why they have been left in."
Strangely enough the two bars were not deleted and appeared in the Score published in 1825. The circumstances were only discovered by Mendelssohn in 1846 and made known to the Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung of July 1846, the music-publishers contributing a facsimile of Beethoven's letter of Aug. 21st 1810. (See also Nottebohm, Beethoveniana [1871] etc.)

I note that Loughran included the scherzo repeat in his recording . I have that on LP but my record player is out of action at present.

[Bryn]

I note that Loughran included the scherzo repeat in his recording . I have that on LP but my record player is out of action at present.

Ditto. My Thorens has been stripped down for ages. I've been meaning to replace the mains lead but have not yet got a round tuit.

[Tony Halstead]

I note that Loughran included the scherzo repeat in his recording . I have that on LP but my record player is out of action at present.

Indeed, Jimmy Loughran was including that repeat as well as the Finale repeat in his performances and recordings with the BBC Scottish as long ago as 1967-1968 when the BBCSSO was doing dry runs for his series with the LSO.

[Lordgeous]

One of the most exciting and fresh Beethoven 5's I've heard in recent years was Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla's debut at the Proms with CBSO (last year or year before?). A real sense of occasion with the GBSO obviously playing its heart out for her. Thrilling. Anyone else remember that? Last movement in particular. What an orchestra!

Ah, I see it was 2017!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf27GMYNV_k

[silvestrione]

One of the most exciting and fresh Beethoven 5's I've heard in recent years was Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla's debut at the Proms with CBSO (last year or year before?). A real sense of occasion with the GBSO obviously playing its heart out for her. Thrilling. Anyone else remember that? Last movement in particular. What an orchestra!

Ah, I see it was 2017!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf27GMYNV_k

Yes, I do remember it, wonderful.

[jayne lee wilson]

One of the most exciting and fresh Beethoven 5's I've heard in recent years was Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla's debut at the Proms with CBSO (last year or year before?). A real sense of occasion with the GBSO obviously playing its heart out for her. Thrilling. Anyone else remember that? Last movement in particular. What an orchestra!

Ah, I see it was 2017!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf27GMYNV_k

Specific thread here with reviews, (vigorous!) discussions etc.....

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?17292-Prom-50-21-08-17-Beethoven-Stravinsky-and-Gerald-Barry

I was not so keen.... but one remembers 2017 as the season of....Concert Sound....The Lossless Proms... How wonderful that was. I guess there's little chance of that ever coming back now, not to speak of The Proms themselves this year....

But if everyone should stay at home..& we're not even at the end of the beginning..... don't ask why ask why not...etc......

[Lordgeous]

Thanks Jayne. Controversial if nothing else!

[Bryn]

Having now dug out the Boulez CD and a suitable magnifying glass, I can report that the sleeve note says, in part, “The Boulez interpretation features a repeat of the scherzo and trio - the whole of the opening part - that may be unique to his own performance. When asked by Alan Blyth of The Gramophone Magazine what his authority was for this unusual procedure, Boulez replied: “I have a pupil who has written a 200-page thesis on this very point, and he has proved conclusively to me that it was just carelessness on Beethoven’s part that the repeat marks got left out. I think that the balance of the work is improved, too, in practice.”

The Boulez recording was made in December 1968.

[Flay]

it was just carelessness on Beethoven’s part that the repeat marks got left out.

He demanded corrections from the publisher so I don't see how it can be said to be careless.

Perhaps there's something here in Chapter VI, but my grade 6 O-Level German isn't up to it :

Beethoveniana: Aufsätze und Mittheilungen, Volume 1
By Gustav Nottebohm

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dY5TAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=nottebohm+beethoveniana+1871&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihi4aav4DpAhUFonEKHXfeAbMQ6AEIYDAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Bryn]

He demanded corrections from the publisher so I don't see how it can be said to be careless.

Perhaps there's something here in Chapter VI, but my grade 6 O-Level German isn't up to it :

Beethoveniana: Aufsätze und Mittheilungen, Volume 1
By Gustav Nottebohm

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false

The quote must be correctly attributed to Boulez, via Blyth, not to me. I was but the messenger.

[Flay]

I was but the messenger.

Don't worry, I won't shoot!

Well some kind person has put the original score to the music. Just after 17:40 they do the repeat, but I can't make out what's happening on the score, it's such a mess!

John Eliot Gardiner conducting the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique from 1994

[Barbirollians]

Don't worry, I won't shoot!

Well some kind person has put the original score to the music. Just after 17:40 they do the repeat, but I can't make out what's happening on the score, it's such a mess!

John Eliot Gardiner conducting the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique from 1994

Sony have put Currentzis's performance on You Tube ! I have listened to the first movement - I didn't like it - very hard driven and a preposterous sounding ritardando before the oboe solo . Credit for doing it though when they want to charge like. wounded rhino if you buy it.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Don't worry, I won't shoot!

... Just after 17:40 they do the repeat, but I can't make out what's happening on the score, it's such a mess!

John Eliot Gardiner conducting the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique from 1994

Fascinating to follow, but I don't see any repeat.

[Flay]

Fascinating to follow, but I don't see any repeat.

Well I'm pretty perplexed too. If this link works, do the markings at 77 indicate the repeat? Page 185.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mfpzvwm89w5gq73/Screenshot_20200424-121156.png?dl=0

Then this score fragment is shown of page 145

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uzm1hmnbvumna5d/Screenshot_20200424-123057.png?dl=0

The repeat goes back to p 145 at the X mark. It isn't clear who added these markings.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tpdhf8vjk783ru7/_20200424_124811.JPG?dl=0