Beethoven Symphony No. 5/Musica Aeterna/Currentzis. Sony 24/96 via Qobuz Studio.

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  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    Beethoven Symphony No. 5/Musica Aeterna/Currentzis. Sony 24/96 via Qobuz Studio.

    ....attracting much controversial attention, thought I'd open a separate thread for it...

    LVB 5 - CURRENTZIS

    Fine opening movement, with very explicit contrasts between dramatic/lyric, drive/hesitation; tension and dynamic power increasing through the last part of the movement, culminating in a poignantly drawn out oboe solo and a terrific coda - Currentzis holding power in reserve here, the movement aptly preludial: this isn't the finale, you don’t take the roof off yet - but this allegro still had a fine cut and thrust, with some unusual inflexions of phrase and dynamics to keep your attention..
    Something was missing though - momentum, follow-through, the sense of the larger structure; I felt it was all a bit episodic.

    This became more obvious in the 2nd movement, where (especially with some elongated pauses) the variations felt like a series of vignettes, pictures on a wall without a linking theme or commentary. Some lovely string playing, but I missed the sense of build-up toward the quicker variation and the final climax. This was partly due to the dynamic contrasts, extreme (and impressive) though they are, sounding rather calculated; rhythms too sounded rather unvaried, stiff and metrical, not building toward, or away from, the climactic moments. Articulation was clean and sharp, yes, but not dedicated to a greater structural cause. An overall sense of stasis.

    So thus far the performance seemed purely to be about texture, colour and dynamics. Sound, not story; lacking the longer line of dramatic narrative.

    It didn’t get much better.
    The scherzo-sans-repeat always seems far too short to me anyway (especially if the finale repeat is made, as here). At this tempo, it barely registers before we’re in transition and the finale bursts upon us.
    A shame, since I enjoyed this movement the most; yet even those rugged Aeternal basses sounded too mechanically motorised to me. TC’s rhythmic discipline at least suits the brass figures better here.

    In the finale, those frequent dynamic swells often followed by sharp, stamping stresses, the ability of this stunningly virtuoso band to knock out phrase after connecting phrase at speed, same and same again, so cool and precise…all so strict and on-the-leash.
    Hugely impressive, perfectly balanced tonal waves flooding through the room.... but for me, they never added up to more than the sum-of-parts.

    I think (and the booklet notes suggest) Currentzis really does want to realise a blazing heroic vision but - again subjectively, that repetitive approach to phrase, rhythm and dynamics - "timing" in the most general sense - only results in a detached admiration for the abilities of his superbly drilled performers.
    Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 22-04-20, 15:15.
  • Bryn
    Banned
    • Mar 2007
    • 24688

    #2
    Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
    . . . It didn’t get much better.
    The scherzo-sans-repeat always seems far too short to me anyway (especially if the finale repeat is made, as here). At this tempo, it barely registers before we’re in transition and the finale bursts upon us.
    A shame, since I enjoyed this movement the most; yet even those rugged Aeternal basses sounded too mechanically motorised to me. TC’s rhythmic discipline at least suits the brass figures better here.

    In the finale, those frequent dynamic swells often followed by sharp, stamping stresses, the ability of this stunningly virtuoso band to knock out phrase after connecting phrase at speed, same and same again, so cool and precise…all so strict and on-the-leash.
    Hugely impressive, perfectly balanced tonal waves flooding through the room.... but for me, they never added up to more than the sum-of-parts.

    I think (and the booklet notes suggest) Currentzis really does want to realise a blazing heroic vision but - again subjectively, that repetitive approach to phrase, rhythm and dynamics only results in a detached admiration for the abilities of his superbly drilled performers.
    The lack of the scherzo repeat does rather undermine any suggestion of respect for the composer's intentions. I think Boulez was probably the first to record the work with the repeat in place. Such a pity his performance did not have that much else to recommend it. Glad Sony included it in their Boulez big box, though.

    Thanks for the detailed and illuninating, if all too brief () analysis.

    Comment

    • Steerpike
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 101

      #3
      Thank you Jayne for your helpful review, you've encouraged me to try it.

      Comment

      • Pulcinella
        Host
        • Feb 2014
        • 10925

        #4
        Originally posted by Bryn View Post
        The lack of the scherzo repeat does rather undermine any suggestion of respect for the composer's intentions. I think Boulez was probably the first to record the work with the repeat in place. Such a pity his performance did not have that much else to recommend it. Glad Sony included it in their Boulez big box, though.

        Thanks for the detailed and illuninating, if all too brief () analysis.
        With a filler, too!

        Comment

        • Bryn
          Banned
          • Mar 2007
          • 24688

          #5
          Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post
          With a filler, too!
          And pleasant voyage to you, too.

          Comment

          • Eine Alpensinfonie
            Host
            • Nov 2010
            • 20570

            #6
            A very interesting review, Jayne, but I’m puzzled about the scherzo repeat. I have two different scores of this work, and no scherzo repeat exists in either. I’m presuming that some evidence has been unearthed to challenge these older scores?

            Comment

            • jayne lee wilson
              Banned
              • Jul 2011
              • 10711

              #7
              Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
              A very interesting review, Jayne, but I’m puzzled about the scherzo repeat. I have two different scores of this work, and no scherzo repeat exists in either. I’m presuming that some evidence has been unearthed to challenge these older scores?
              A good summary here on wiki....scroll down to "Textual Questions"....


              Excellent, very detailed discussion (first published as long ago as 1970) by Robert Simpson in his BBC Music Guide to the Symphonies...


              "​...the documentary facts being both indecisive and contradictory, we are faced with a purely artistic problem of a supremely exciting kind, one that can eventually be solved only by a consensus of thoughtful and imaginative (and above all respectful) opinion. Therefore it concerns the ordinary listener more than the fact-finding scholar."

              Do seek it out, it's an excellent consideration with fascinating comments from Boult about performance problems.

              Quite a few more conductors have taken it up, most recently Philippe Jordan with the VSO (finale repeat too, 2017), though it hasn't become as prevalent as I'd thought, or rather hoped, it would. Intriguingly, Blomstedt does the scherzo/trio repeat in Dresden (1977, a substantial 8'53 overall...) but omits the finale one; in Leipzig (2017) its the other way round!
              Interesting to see what happens with other releases this year....

              I think we've probably arrived at a similar point to the Mahler 6 middle-movement problem: evidence can be interpreted either way, but it has come down latterly to artistic choice or instinct for both performers and listeners. The odd thing in my own case is that, before I knew of the controversy, I often found the 5th too short and "lightweight" especially if the finale repeat wasn't taken either; as if the victory was too easily gained.
              On the other hand, you may well feel that having the finale one without that of the scherzo/trio, especially given the reference back to the scherzo (as with Currentzis) is unbalanced in the other direction......
              Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 22-04-20, 19:58.

              Comment

              • richardfinegold
                Full Member
                • Sep 2012
                • 7666

                #8
                I haven’t been to impressed by Currentzis in other repertoire. His desire to be original and controversial strikes me as to contrived. JLW review hasn’t made me want to seek this out

                Comment

                • Bryn
                  Banned
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 24688

                  #9
                  Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                  A good summary here on wiki....scroll down to "Textual Questions"....


                  Excellent, very detailed discussion (first published as long ago as 1970) by Robert Simpson in his BBC Music Guide to the Symphonies...


                  "​...the documentary facts being both indecisive and contradictory, we are faced with a purely artistic problem of a supremely exciting kind, one that can eventually be solved only by a consensus of thoughtful and imaginative (and above all respectful) opinion. Therefore it concerns the ordinary listener more than the fact-finding scholar."

                  Do seek it out, it's an excellent consideration with fascinating comments from Boult about performance problems.

                  Quite a few more conductors have taken it up, most recently Philippe Jordan with the VSO (finale repeat too, 2017), though it hasn't become as prevalent as I'd thought, or rather hoped, it would. Intriguingly, Blomstedt does the scherzo/trio repeat in Dresden (1977, a substantial 8'53 overall...) but omits the finale one; in Leipzig (2017) its the other way round!
                  Interesting to see what happens with other releases this year....

                  I think we've probably arrived at a similar point to the Mahler 6 middle-movement problem: evidence can be interpreted either way, but it has come down latterly to artistic choice or instinct for both performers and listeners. The odd thing in my own case is that, before I knew of the controversy, I often found the 5th too short and "lightweight" especially if the finale repeat wasn't taken either; as if the victory was too easily gained.
                  On the other hand, you may well feel that having the finale one without that of the scherzo/trio, especially given the reference back to the scherzo (as with Currentzis) is unbalanced in the other direction......
                  The short version is that the original manuscript had the repeat, i.e. ABABA', but the later COWDUNG (conventional wisdom of the dominant group) was that Beethoven's final choice was a straight forward ABA'. Jonathan Del Mar argues for the latter. Boulez accepted the argument, in a thesis by one of his students, that the original manuscript represented not only the composer's initial but also his final intention regarding the form of the movement, (see the programme notes for the Boulez recording). Many conductors identifying with the HIPP outlook opt for the ABABA' form for the third movement.

                  Comment

                  • Flay
                    Full Member
                    • Mar 2007
                    • 5795

                    #10
                    I have an undated Edition Eulenberg sore. In the foreword Prof. dr. Wilth. Altmanm wrote [of the 5th and 6th symphonies]:

                    On March 4th 1809 Beethoven wrote as follows to Breitkopf & Härtel:- "Both Symphonies dedicated to His Excellency, Count Rasumovsky and His Highness, Prince Lobkowitz - Symphony in C minor op. 60 [printed as op. 67!], and the Symphony in F op. 61 [printed as op. 69!]. You will receive tomorrow a list of small alterations which I have made during performances of the works. When I gave you the compositions I had not heard either of them and one must not try to be above making slight improvements to one's creations."
                    On March 28th 1809 he wrote again saying:- "Herewith I send the Piano [? probably the word: small] alterations to the Symphonies. Please have the plates corrected at once... You told me of another mistake in the 3rd movement of the C minor Symphony. I cannot remember it so you had better return me the proof with the score. You shall have all back in a day or two." In doing away with the repeat of the whole Scherzo and the Trio, the two "Prima volta" bars before the Coda were left standing in the parts to be used for printing. The engravers must have notified this and the reported it to Beethoven. Whether the publisher's reply to this enquiry of Beethoven of March 28th 1809 never reached the composer, or whether Beethoven simply forgot to write again remains uncertain. At any rate the two bars appeared in the printed parts. Beethoven mentioned the fact some time later and on August 21st 1810 asked for them to be removed. On Oct 15th 1810 he asked again:- "Is the alteration made yet in the 3rd movement of the Symphony - 2 bars too many? I remember vaguely that you asked me about it, but possibly I forgot to answer you at once, and that is why they have been left in."
                    Strangely enough the two bars were not deleted and appeared in the Score published in 1825. The circumstances were only discovered by Mendelssohn in 1846 and made known to the Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung of July 1846, the music-publishers contributing a facsimile of Beethoven's letter of Aug. 21st 1810. (See also Nottebohm, Beethoveniana [1871] etc.)
                    Pacta sunt servanda !!!

                    Comment

                    • Bryn
                      Banned
                      • Mar 2007
                      • 24688

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Flay View Post
                      I have an undated Edition Eulenberg sore. In the foreword Prof. dr. Wilth. Altmanm wrote [of the 5th and 6th symphonies]:

                      On March 4th 1809 Beethoven wrote as follows to Breitkopf & Härtel:- "Both Symphonies dedicated to His Excellency, Count Rasumovsky and His Highness, Prince Lobkowitz - Symphony in C minor op. 60 [printed as op. 67!], and the Symphony in F op. 61 [printed as op. 69!]. You will receive tomorrow a list of small alterations which I have made during performances of the works. When I gave you the compositions I had not heard either of them and one must not try to be above making slight improvements to one's creations."
                      On March 28th 1809 he wrote again saying:- "Herewith I send the Piano [? probably the word: small] alterations to the Symphonies. Please have the plates corrected at once... You told me of another mistake in the 3rd movement of the C minor Symphony. I cannot remember it so you had better return me the proof with the score. You shall have all back in a day or two." In doing away with the repeat of the whole Scherzo and the Trio, the two "Prima volta" bars before the Coda were left standing in the parts to be used for printing. The engravers must have notified this and the reported it to Beethoven. Whether the publisher's reply to this enquiry of Beethoven of March 28th 1809 never reached the composer, or whether Beethoven simply forgot to write again remains uncertain. At any rate the two bars appeared in the printed parts. Beethoven mentioned the fact some time later and on August 21st 1810 asked for them to be removed. On Oct 15th 1810 he asked again:- "Is the alteration made yet in the 3rd movement of the Symphony - 2 bars too many? I remember vaguely that you asked me about it, but possibly I forgot to answer you at once, and that is why they have been left in."
                      Strangely enough the two bars were not deleted and appeared in the Score published in 1825. The circumstances were only discovered by Mendelssohn in 1846 and made known to the Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung of July 1846, the music-publishers contributing a facsimile of Beethoven's letter of Aug. 21st 1810. (See also Nottebohm, Beethoveniana [1871] etc.)
                      That's very interesting. I only have the study scores of Jonathan Del Mar's edition, not his critical commentary. What you report goes towards illuminating his decision to omit the repeat. However, it also makes it the more surprising that Boulez accepted his student's research on the matter.

                      Comment

                      • Flay
                        Full Member
                        • Mar 2007
                        • 5795

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                        That's very interesting. I only have the study scores of Jonathan Del Mar's edition, not his critical commentary. What you report goes towards illuminating his decision to omit the repeat. However, it also makes it the more surprising that Boulez accepted his student's research on the matter.
                        From Wiki:

                        Third movement repeat
                        In the autograph score (that is, the original version from Beethoven's hand), the third movement contains a repeat mark: when the scherzo and trio sections have both been played through, the performers are directed to return to the very beginning and play these two sections again. Then comes a third rendering of the scherzo, this time notated differently for pizzicato strings and transitioning directly to the finale (see description above). Most modern printed editions of the score do not render this repeat mark; and indeed most performances of the symphony render the movement as ABA′ (where A = scherzo, B = trio, and A′ = modified scherzo), in contrast to the ABABA′ of the autograph score. The repeat mark in the autograph is unlikely to be simply an error on the composer's part. The ABABA′ scheme for scherzi appears elsewhere in Beethoven, in the Bagatelle for solo piano, Op. 33, No. 7 (1802), and in the Fourth, Sixth, and Seventh Symphonies. However, it is possible that for the Fifth Symphony, Beethoven originally preferred ABABA′, but changed his mind in the course of publication in favor of ABA′.
                        It isn't clear if Beethoven changed his mind, or if it was the decision of the publisher, but it does appear that Beethoven was happy to leave out the repeat.
                        Pacta sunt servanda !!!

                        Comment

                        • Flay
                          Full Member
                          • Mar 2007
                          • 5795

                          #13
                          Does anyone here have access to Beethoveniana [1871] ?
                          Pacta sunt servanda !!!

                          Comment

                          • Barbirollians
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 11682

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Flay View Post
                            Does anyone here have access to Beethoveniana [1871] ?
                            A fascinating discussion . jLW’s review makes me even less inclined to buy it .

                            Comment

                            • cloughie
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 22119

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                              The lack of the scherzo repeat does rather undermine any suggestion of respect for the composer's intentions. I think Boulez was probably the first to record the work with the repeat in place. Such a pity his performance did not have that much else to recommend it. Glad Sony included it in their Boulez big box, though.

                              Thanks for the detailed and illuninating, if all too brief () analysis.
                              Boulez is not the first conductor that comes to mind with Beethoven and I suspect that he was not of his agenda and he conducted works not in his regular repertoire were added when he was Chief of the BBCSO and indeed there are BBC Legends live recordings with the great Sir Clifford Curzon of the Emperor and Mozart’s K537 ! The repeats became popular in the 70s when if I recall Carlos Kleiber, Dorati and Solti all included them in recordings but I would need to seek out from the shelves and check!

                              Comment

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