Celibidache

[mathias broucek]

Are there any other Celi lovers out there?

I'd not really had much to do with Celi as when EMI and DG first released his material after he died it was incredible expensive and then rapidly dissapeared from the shops!

However when I was on holiday in Vienna, a newsagent was flogging off some EMI recordings that had been given away free in a German newspaper for €5 and one of them was Celi's Bruckner 4. I'd read that this was the pick of the bunch and Robert Simpson's Bruckner book speaks about Celi's unique way with the coda of the finale.

The Bruckner 4 was an absolute revelation. The textures created and the trasparency were extraordinary.

Since then I've been tracking down more Celi (mostly by downloading as CD availability is often poor.)

I've acquired most of the Munich Bruckner (outstanding if V-E-R-Y slow at times), the Stuttgart Bruckner (interesting but not as special), the Stuttgart Brahms (quite dynamic and with some glorious moments) and the Munich Brahms (simply incredible!).

But he rarely seems to come up as an online topic (perhaps people were put off by a 100 minute Bruckner 8?). Any thoughts?

[Gordon]

I came across a 10 Cd box from Membran [a label of reissues and deletions, a bit like Brilliant Classics] that has lots of variety of Celi ecordings with the LPO and BPO. Some are a bit ropey technically but well worth it.

I forget where I got this box from now but I'm sure it's out there in cyberland somewhere. Here's a list of what's in the set,: Please note the Dvorak Cello concerto caveat.

231 885 Set number Celibidache conducts
Disc 1 Mozart: Symphony 25 in G minor K183 with LPO recorded Kingsway Hall April 9th and December 29th 1948
Haydn: Symphony 94 with BPO recorded September 28th 1946
Haydn: Symphony 104 with BPO recorded February 20th 1950
Disc 2 Beethoven: Overture Leonore III with BPO recorded November 11th 1946
Berlioz: Overture Le Corsaire with BPO recorded August 31st 1947
Mendelssohn: Symphony 4 with BPO recorded January 20th 1950
Disc 3 Brahms: Symphony 2 with BPO recorded 1949
Brahms 4 I and II with BPO recorded November 21 1945
Disc 4 Brahms 4 III and IV with BPO recorded November 21 1945
Dvorak: Cello Concerto with Pierre Fournier with “LPO” recorded 1945
This is a pirated, but now out of copyright, live recording and has been erroneously attributed to the LPO.
Billed as "The Legendary 1945 London Broadcast" on the front of the Grammofono 2000 CD booklet and "Recording Autumn 1945" on the case. "Radio Times" lists no such broadcast and, according to the LPO's concert programmes, Celibidache did not conduct the orchestra until April 1948. The "Gramophone" review of the Urania issue described it as "of somewhat doubtful provenance" and observed that "the wobbly lead horn sounds more French than English".
Disc 5 Tchaikovsky: Symphony 2 in C minor Op 176 with BPO recorded 1948
Tchaikovsky: Nutcracker Suite with LPO recorded Kingsway Hall December 28/9th 1948 and July 23rd 1949
Disc 6 Tchaikovsky: Symphony 5 in E minor Op 64 with LPO recorded Kingsway Hall July 5-6th & 9th 1948
Overture Romeo & Juliet with BPO recorded March 25th 1946
Disc 7 Debussy: La Mer withBPO recorded August 31st 1947
Debussy: Jeux with BPO recorded March 20th 1948
Busoni: Violin Concerto with Siegfried Borries with BPO recorded May 8th 1949
Disc 8 Hindemith: Piano Concerto with Gerhardt Puchelt with BPO recorded September 12th 1949
Britten: Sinfonia da Requiem with BPO recorded November 10th 1946
Gliere: Concerto for Soprano and Orchestra Erna Berger with BPO recorded June 7th 1946
Disc 9 Shostakovich: Symphony 7 with BPO recorded December 22nd 1946
Disc 10 Sostakovich: Symphony 9 with BPO recorded August 31st 1946
Prokofiev: Symphony 1 with BPO recorded July 6th 1946
Stravinsky: Jeu de Cartes with BPO recorded March 6th 1950

Interesting that some of these recordings were made with the LPO at Kingsway Hall in London.

[HighlandDougie]

Such is the persuasive power of others' recommendations in these threads that I've downloaded the Munich PO Brahms - well, Nos 2, 3 & 4 as a start - in what sounds so far like very fine sound (from Qobuz who, unlike i-Tunes or Amazon, do high quality lossless downloads - and at reasonable prices). I'm thoroughly enjoying the Second as I type - I will be interested to hear the others. So many thanks, MB, for the recommendation. I remember the LSO concerts from the 1970s as idiosyncratic but riveting but then heard some Bruckner which seemed perverse. And then reading about breaking Ida Haendel's heart (or did I imagine that?) .... So much more to explore, if very belatedly

[mathias broucek]

Enjoy Dougie. I particularly like the 2nd and 4th of the MPO set.

The MPO Bruckner 8 is perverse at times. He aimed to conduct at a tempo that allowed the whole texture to be audible. Well, the Code to the 8ths finale is somewhat dense so it gets very slow indeed.....

[mathias broucek]

"Shostakovich: Symphony 7 with BPO recorded December 22nd 1946"

I have this in another cheapie set. I get shivvers thinking of the cultural implications of the BPO playing the Leningrad Symphony in 1946!

[Gordon]

I know!! When I first saw the date I did a complete double take and could not believe it. Remarkable. The recording quality [in the Membran set] suggests it could well be true.

[Paul N]

I bought the Munich Bruckner 4 when it came out, at full price, and was, and still am, very impressed. From the set, it was singled out by Richard Osborne in Gramophone, along with the 6th. I ummed and aahed about the latter but didn't buy, much to my regret (an alternative to the Klemperer would be very welcome) - what do you think to it?

[mathias broucek]

Paul,

The 6th is excellent - esp the slow movement.

Hard copies are hard to find, but you can get FLACs from Qobuz or Passionator or 320kbps MP3s from Tesco(!) or HMV.

[Donnie Essen]

I started checking out some Celibidache a while back, kinda at the same time I was first checking out Bruckner. I thought they were great - so slow and powerful and building all majestic.

Not sure he's the greatest way to be introduced to Bruckner, though, because other versions then seemed way too fast and light, and like they won't quite do. I then thought to put Celibidache aside til I knew each symphony well enough, conducted by others, that his take on them wouldn't spoil other versions. Unfortunately, that's still aside for me. Got to work on hearing all of Bruckner well yet.

[Chris Newman]

I agree with Donnie. Celi's Bruckner inhabits a wonderful majestic world that you grow into once once you get past merely enjoying the noises Bruckner could make. I have several dubious off-radio sets of his and often return to them.

I used to possess a lovely VHS tape of him rehearsing and playing "The New World Symphony". My young son thought he looked terribly grumpy until about two minutes in a huge grin spread across Celi's face as he relaxed and loved the sound of his Munich players. It also included a fascinating biog film of him at work with students and drawing lovely playing in Verdi's "La Forza del Destino" Overture. He worked people hard but gave praise with loving smiles.

[mathias broucek]

I've seen that New World excerpt. Wish there was a CD or DVD of the whole performance - the MPO sounds unbelievable!

[Karafan]

Yes, someone's sitting on a goldmine (or "minefield" as a friend of mine, fond of the odd solecism, used to say) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8339VPM1AA&playnext=1&list=PL16D3DE473DFDBCE2&index=5

Bws,
Karafan

[salymap]

This is sad. I know I saw him in the late 1940s, early 50s at the RAH but,as with Furtwangler,can hardly remember a thing about it. When very young it's difficult or impossible to sort the Hollingsworths [sorry John] from the Celi's.

[Chris Newman]

Mathias Broucek,
Thank you for starting this thread. You have reminded me of the wonderful Munich Phil performance I had on VHS Video of Celi conducting this work. I just looked it up and ordered it for pennies on DVD. The accompanying documentary is bliss. There are still a few s/h copies available. 28 dollars in the states. I also bought a complete set of "Waiting for God": thanks for the memory!

bws
Chris.

[scottycelt]

I agree with Donnie that maybe Celi is not the best conductor to introduce one to Bruckner. His pace was unusually slow, which will undoubtedly put off many an impatient thrill-me-quick musical soul, however worthy the experience for others.

He has been described as a Brucknerian's Brucknerian, which, for me, wonderfully summed up his approach to the music !