Pinnock's Haydn. Have things moved on?

[ostuni]

Frankly, I'm staggered that a quarter of a semitone could make such a profound difference to the performers!

You’re not a wind player, then?

[Dave2002]

You’re not a wind player, then?

You think string players don’t have this issue as well, then?

I was a bit surprised too, but I think Tony explained some of the difficulties. I don’t know enough about horns, but some other wind instruments behave really oddly some times. One such is the recorder, which like the flute can have notes flattened slightly by adjusting the relative position of the top joint with the body. However (and I was surprised by this) some instruments will start to give completely different notes for some fingerings with even a small adjustment in position. This can be instrument specific, with some “simply” sounding the slightly lowered pitch (“required”), while others will start to behave very oddly indeed.

If even a few instruments in a band start to have problems like this, then indeed, small tuning differences could make a big difference to how well the ensemble is able to play together.

If, however, such technical difficulties either do not happen, or can be overcome easily, then I wouldn’t expect may people to notice - but players will notice if there are specific problems.

Here we have been discussing “absolute” pitch, in the sense of the overall tuning of an ensemble.

In some music, perhaps, but not exclusively so, fairly modern - as some earlier music also has oddities - the pitching of specific notes can (IMO) present problems. One such piece is Stravinsky’s Ragtime. The final note, iirc correctly, sounds horrible. I think it was meant to sound like that. A conductor might try to get it to sound “nicer” by asking one or more players to alter the tuning. Where there is a deliberate, intended discord, it can be very difficult (again IMO) to get the tuning right. Slight adjustments may make a difference and make some chords much more harmonious, but for discords they may simply alter the flavour of unpleasantness. Professional players will probably know more about this sort of thing than I do.

[MickyD]

Now I’m confused (what’s new ...??). I know little about Derek Solomon’s, where he worked etc. I knew of some of the recordings, which may have been issued on CBS, though one turned up on Saga as an LP. Were these recorded by Decca originally? Also, where was the L’Estro Armonico Orchestra based?

Saga produced the first two boxes of the Haydn 'Morzin' symphonies, then CBS went on to continue the series with a series of about 4 boxes, I think. Sadly, as is so often the case with Haydn symphony cycles, the record company pulled out. This was a real shame, as I still think Solomons had exactly the right approach. It would be nice to think that some company such as Brilliant Classics could put them all into one big box.

I saw Derek Solomons and L'Estro Armonico at the Queen Elizabeth Hall in the 80s, but though I was an avid concert goer in London at that time, I am pretty sure that their appearances were rare. I've no idea where they were based.

Derek Solomons then went on to record two discs of Rossini and Schumann (also HIPP) for Collins Classics, but I recall them being cruelly savaged by reviewers at the time.

[rauschwerk]

You’re not a wind player, then?

No.

[cloughie]

I’ve now had a listen to my three recordings of No 35 - Dorati’s non HIPP but bright and beautiful, Hogwood and Pinnock both very good indeed - a/b comparison of movt 1 shows very close on sound, weight and tempi!

[vinteuil]

Now I’m confused (what’s new ...??). I know little about Derek Solomon’s, where he worked etc. I knew of some of the recordings, which may have been issued on CBS, though one turned up on Saga as an LP. Were these recorded by Decca originally? Also, where was the L’Estro Armonico Orchestra based?

.

Derek Solomons and l' Estro Armonico - I have two 3 CD boxes on the CBS label, which have the following Symphonies :

. 35, 38, 39, 49, 58, 59;
. 42, 45, 46, 47, 51, 65.

There is a further sony disc which has 26, 48, 49.

I don't know whether other of his Haydn symphonies are available.



.

[Lion-of-Vienna]

.

Derek Solomons and l' Estro Armonico - I have two 3 CD boxes on the CBS label, which have the following Symphonies :

. 35, 38, 39, 49, 58, 59;
. 42, 45, 46, 47, 51, 65.

There is a further sony disc which has 26, 48, 49.

I don't know whether other of his Haydn symphonies are available.



.

You can listen to all of Solomon's Haydn Symphony recordings on Youtube. Simply enter "Haydn Solomons Symphony 1" (or whatever symphony you want) in the search box.

[vinteuil]

You can listen to all of Solomon's Haydn Symphony recordings on Youtube. Simply enter "Haydn Solomons Symphony 1" (or whatever symphony you want) in the search box.

... many thanks.




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[Dave2002]

Saga produced the first two boxes of the Haydn 'Morzin' symphonies, then CBS went on to continue the series with a series of about 4 boxes, I think. Sadly, as is so often the case with Haydn symphony cycles, the record company pulled out. This was a real shame, as I still think Solomons had exactly the right approach. It would be nice to think that some company such as Brilliant Classics could put them all into one big box.

I saw Derek Solomons and L'Estro Armonico at the Queen Elizabeth Hall in the 80s, but though I was an avid concert goer in London at that time, I am pretty sure that their appearances were rare. I've no idea where they were based.

Derek Solomons then went on to record two discs of Rossini and Schumann (also HIPP) for Collins Classics, but I recall them being cruelly savaged by reviewers at the time.

Thanks for the clarification. I vaguely remember some of this - not sure whether I ever bought the Saga ‘Morzin’ works - possibly - maybe, in a box of LPs “somewhere”.

Tony mentioned a Decca engineer, so were some recordings actually made by Decca, then sold as CBS?

Re where the orchestra was based, I didn’t assume previously that it was necessarily in the UK, and TBH I wasn’t sure where Derek Solomons came from. Details are hard to find.

[verismissimo]

The Morzin recordings are clearly Saga product, produced by Martin Compton, engineer Trygg Tryggavason, St Barnabus Church, Woodside Park, London, December 1980. Robbins Landon editions from 1962.

CBS recordings also Compton and Tryggavason at St Barnabus, 1981-85.

Notes reveal Derek Solomons was born in London in 1937. Took up violin at 14, RAM, Guildhall with Yfrah Neaman. Formed L'Estro Armonico(in London) in 1973. First concerts on modern instruments, gradually transitioning to 'original instruments'.

Altogether a delight!

[vinteuil]

Re where the orchestra was based, I didn’t assume previously that it was necessarily in the UK, and TBH I wasn’t sure where Derek Solomons came from. Details are hard to find.

Derek Solomons born in London in 1937. Scholarship to Royal Academy of Music, studied under Yfrah Neaman at the Guildhall. Formed l' Estro Armonico in 1973, musicians selected from UK chamber music players : it became the 'performing arm' of the Vivaldi Society from 1975. Regular London South Bank concerts at the Queen Elizabeth Hall and Purcell Room ; performances at the Bath Festival in 1978 (Vivaldi tercentenary) and 1982 (Haydn sestercentenary). L' Estro Armonico gave its first concerts on 'modern' instruments, but gradually moved to all performances on 'original' or similar instruments.

.EDIT - I see verismissimo got there first!




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[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Tony mentioned a Decca engineer, so were some recordings actually made by Decca, then sold as CBS?

Trygg Tryggvason worked as a freelance for many companies after leaving DECCA in 1973 - and lectured at the University of East Anglia. Haydn performance might not have "moved on", but Mr Tryggvason himself did.

An interesting article by him discussing the "DECCA Tree" recording method is available online:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/DeccaTree-TryggTryggvason.pdf

[ostuni]

Responding, a bit late, to the wind/string tuning issue (I'm 7hrs behind the UK at the moment) - with a bit more about what makes an 'in between' pitch like A-421 awkward. I have a flute that's tuned to A-430, which is very nice for Haydn at that pitch, but which would play impossibly out-of-tune with itself if I tried to pull the headjoint out sufficiently to play at 421. And I have several flutes at 415, at least one of which would be perfectly appropriate for Haydn, but which (even at its warmest) couldn’t be persuaded to play as high as 421.

But my string-playing colleagues could very easily tune their open strings to 421. That doesn’t quite solve all the problems: their ears have to get used to the unfamiliar pitch - but at least those are 'software' rather than hardware problems...

[MickyD]

Here is an illustration of the first of those two Saga boxes, just to jog a few memories. The second volume carried the same painting, but used a cream background. I bought them as soon as they came out and am very sad they never re-appeared on CD.

[Tony Halstead]

Here is an illustration of the first of those two Saga boxes, just to jog a few memories. The second volume carried the same painting, but used a cream background. I bought them as soon as they came out and am very sad they never re-appeared on CD.

Hello MickyD,
Those 2 Saga LP boxes did indeed appear on several CDs a year or two ago!
But not 'officially', via either Saga or CBS.
They were 'digitised' and offered for sale by a company in either Austria or Germany called 'Haydn Archive' or something such.
I bought a couple and found that they were well re-mastered, but in what seemed an illogical order, i.e. there may have been a CD with symphonies 1, 33 and 18 on it, or maybe four or five of the shorter pieces. I'll try to clear this up later!