Pinnock's Haydn. Have things moved on?

[jayne lee wilson]

Bruggen marvellous, iconic for me. Where I came in...
CMW/Harnoncourt also great (especially 6-8), never recorded enough of them, astounding epic all-repeats (incl. 2nd half ones) set of the Paris Symphonies later with CMW 2005).
SWR/Norrington London Symphonies, again an all-time fave, 2009, exceptional sound. Don't know a more purely joyful set than this.

But more recently - Fey and the Heidelbergers (HIPPs-moderne); Antonini 2032 (HIPPS-authentic).... stunning cycles in state of the art sound (with a sharp pang of tragic recognition for dear, beloved Thomas Fey) ....none better, both startlingly fresh & wonderful in the Sturm und Drang works...

When I need some Haydn, I always go for these now. I acclaim them both as true classics.

[Master Jacques]

CMW/Harnoncourt also great (especially 6-8), never recorded enough of them, astounding epic all-repeats (incl. 2nd half ones) set of the Paris Symphonies later with CMW 2005).

Your enthusiastic post Jayne reminds me how very, very lucky we've been with Haydn since the millennium. And that Harnoncourt Paris set would be one of my desert island contenders, too, for its astonishing power and heroism (your "epic" is the word, indeed). Previous generations did not have this range and quality of recordings, which enable us to at least begin to grasp the enormity of Haydn's symphonic achievement.

[MickyD]

[QUOTE but my favourite recording is Solomons' with L'Estro Armonico (recorded in the early '80s - so a little earlier than Pinnock's).[/QUOTE]

I quite agree, ferney.

[Tony Halstead]

AMcG seemed a bit critical of the choice of Pinnock for Symphony 35. "Haven't things move on?" He asked. What do the panel think? I prefer Ward in 35... slightly bigger orchestra, more string heft & beauty, modern instruments, horn in tune and doesn't grate, as sprightly as Pinnock...

Writing and commenting as the 'grating' and 'out of tune' horn player, Mal, I will offer only these thoughts:

'Orchestral intonation in general' is not exactly one of the better features of this much-praised but IMV only intermittently successful series of Haydn symphony recordings. Having played with Mr Pinnock and The English Concert almost since its inception in the early 1970s, by the time these 'Sturm und Drang' works were recorded in 1989-1990 I felt that I was familiar with their overall playing style. This style embraced certain virtues such as: an almost suave, blended, 'non-acidic' string sound that was sweetened by a judicious, intelligently applied vibrato where appropriate, a strongly propulsive and clearly etched bass line, very much encouraged by Pinnock's harpsichord, and last but not least, excellent intonation both vertically and horizontally. This latter virtue was always apparent when playing at either 'baroque' pitch (generally at A=415) or so-called 'classical' pitch (habitually A=430 although there is scant historical evidence for this rather low pitch; A=435 seems more likely).

In 1989 nothing could have prepared me, and presumably other English Concert players, for the 'cat among the pigeons' effect of having to play, in pre-recording concerts as well as of course in the DGG/Archiv sessions, at the absurd, ungrateful and somehow un-resonant pitch of A=421. The words 'can' and worms' spring to mind!
When the 'Sturm und Drang symphonies' project started, The E.C. had already made a very fine (IMV) 'Archiv' CD of the superb trilogy of Symphonies 6-8 (Morning, Noon and Night) at the baroque pitch of A=415, exactly a semitone lower than A=440 pitch.
So, it would have been logical to continue at that pitch.
But, no, at some point an 'executive decision' was made, (by whom?) to perform and record this very demanding repertoire at a totally 'untried and untested' pitch, in pursuit of what exactly? There was a rumour floating around at the time that a mid-18th c. oboe that played happily at A=421 had been discovered...'that's it'!
A=421 is so very close to baroque pitch that it simply felt like playing baroque music very sharp!

During the associated rehearsals and concerts before the recording sessions we all worked very hard on intonation, but, as I remember, strings, woodwind and brass were well and truly outside their comfort zones. Trevor Pinnock and Simon Standage, both of them blessed with an acute sense of pitch, tried their best to guide their players into a much-needed 'intonational nirvana' but, alas, that dogmatic A=421 pretty well ruined our potential enjoyment of this wonderful repertoire.

[Wychwood]

Absolutely fascinating, Tony - thank you for that post.

[Tony Halstead]

Reciprocal thanks!

[Richard Barrett]

Very interesting, Tony. That's Sturm und Drang for you! But to my ears (which TBH wouldn't pick up the difference between 415 and 421 unless they heard them in close proximity), those recordings are a typical example of the characteristic EC sound as you describe it (which I think of as good for Haydn and Handel, not so good for CPE Bach and Vivaldi) but with an added edginess which I don't find unattractive... now I know why.

[mikealdren]

I'm sure that pitch changes are far more obvious to performers than listeners. I find playing the violin at a low pitch very difficult, my violin just sounds completely different whereas I suspect that I may not notice a slightly lower pitch as an audience member.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Absolutely fascinating, Tony - thank you for that post.

[Dave2002]

A few years ago I was asked to select a version of part of Messiah, to play at an evening of recorded music. I duly obtained around 9 or so tracks of exactly the same chorus - all digital , though some may have originated from analogue masters. I burned them to CD. One or two of the recordings should have been at lower pitch - Pinnock's and Hogwood's I think, but all the others "should" have been at more or less standard pitch. As I recall, the ones which I expected to be different were, but although the remainder were roughly in the right ball park, I felt the pitch differences were noticeable when switching between any of the others. Perhaps I imagined it, but I do think that some small pitch shifts may still make their presence felt.

It's very hard to know what pitch any piece has been performed or recorded at, though the performers (and recording engineers) may know - though what they will know is what pitch they were trying to achieve, not necessarily what they actually played. Technology only helps slightly. Doing spectral analysis can help to identify individual notes to within a few Hz, but there is always likely to be some error - perhaps 10 or 20 cents, which not only human ears will not be certain about, but which DFT or other similar analysis tools are also unable to give a very precise measurement.

[MickyD]

Fascinating indeed to read Tony's first hand accounts. I well remember Chris Hogwood saying long ago in an interview that he could immediately recognise the sound of his AAM amongst other baroque bands, as well as that of Pinnock's. I'd be interested to hear Tony's thoughts on that one. It's true that the sound of the AAM in the 70s and 80s had a very distinctive sound - was this due to a specific chosen pitch or approach?

[rauschwerk]

In 1989 nothing could have prepared me, and presumably other English Concert players, for the 'cat among the pigeons' effect of having to play, in pre-recording concerts as well as of course in the DGG/Archiv sessions, at the absurd, ungrateful and somehow un-resonant pitch of A=421. The words 'can' and worms' spring to mind!
When the 'Sturm und Drang symphonies' project started, The E.C. had already made a very fine (IMV) 'Archiv' CD of the superb trilogy of Symphonies 6-8 (Morning, Noon and Night) at the baroque pitch of A=415, exactly a semitone lower than A=440 pitch.
So, it would have been logical to continue at that pitch.
But, no, at some point an 'executive decision' was made, (by whom?) to perform and record this very demanding repertoire at a totally 'untried and untested' pitch, in pursuit of what exactly? There was a rumour floating around at the time that a mid-18th c. oboe that played happily at A=421 had been discovered...'that's it'!
A=421 is so very close to baroque pitch that it simply felt like playing baroque music very sharp!

Frankly, I'm staggered that a quarter of a semitone could make such a profound difference to the performers!

[Mal]

'Orchestral intonation in general' is not exactly one of the better features of this much-praised but IMV only intermittently successful series of Haydn symphony recordings...

Do you like the orchestral intonation of Ward & the NCO?

In 1989 nothing could have prepared me, and presumably other English Concert players, for the 'cat among the pigeons' effect of having to play, ... at the absurd, ungrateful and somehow un-resonant pitch...

During the associated rehearsals and concerts before the recording sessions we all worked very hard on intonation, but, as I remember, strings, woodwind and brass were well and truly outside their comfort zones... that dogmatic [pitch] ... ruined our potential enjoyment of this wonderful repertoire...:

I love your insights into the world of a professional musician! You should write a book.

[Tony Halstead]

Yes - "perfectly decent": I would have enjoyed hearing it in a concert, and much prefer it to Dorati's; but those "modern" instruments don't half Botox Haydn's timbres, smoothing out the characteristic (and character-ful) sounds of the instruments of his time that he writes so superbly for. Tempi are a bit soft-centred, too - turning the composer into a well-behaved middle-class English prep-schoolboy.

Pinnock's recordings maintain the virtues they've always shown - but my favourite recording is Solomons' with L'Estro Armonico (recorded in the early '80s - so a little earlier than Pinnock's).

Yes, interesting that you mention those rather 'pioneering' Solomons recordings, ferney. Derek S. was in many ways prophetic in his use of absolutely minimalist 'orchestral forces' ; to be fair, this wasn't simply 'budget dictated' but was based on the evidence of the surviving set(s) of orchestral parts. Of course, there are anomalies... the presence of a single part for cello/ double bass certainly implies that only one cello (player) and one double bass used the same part. So, in the recordings, this is exactly what was done, the cellist Tony Pleeth and the bass player Peter McCarthy sitting/ standing very close to each other and reading off the same part.
The single bassoon part may have been used by 2 players in Haydn's time, but this was not done in the recording, where one player sufficed.
The same comment applies to the single viola part, but Ian White (viola) made such an enormous sound that another player would have been pretty well redundant.

The final point that I am working towards is this: there is no evidence that Haydn 'directed from the keyboard' in these Sturm und Drang symphonies' first performances. This was fully documented and explored in the sleeve notes to the Hogwood/ AAM recordings.
And of course, nobody stood in front of Haydn's little orchestra and waved either their hands or a baton!

SO, the only 'truly authentic' Haydn recordings are the ones that are led/ directed by the 'first violinist'!

What was very interesting and indeed striking in those Solomons recordings nearly 40 years ago was that, Derek having 'set the tempo', we simply played as 'chamber musicians' ...! We LISTENED and REACTED to what was happening.
We had a superb producer in MARTIN COMPTON and an equally superb sound engineer in TRYGG TRYGGVASON, one of the original 'definers' of the legendary 'Decca sound'.

[Dave2002]

Now I’m confused (what’s new ...??). I know little about Derek Solomon’s, where he worked etc. I knew of some of the recordings, which may have been issued on CBS, though one turned up on Saga as an LP. Were these recorded by Decca originally? Also, where was the L’Estro Armonico Orchestra based?