Pinnock's Haydn. Have things moved on?

[Mal]

AMcG seemed a bit critical of the choice of Pinnock for Symphony 35. "Haven't things move on?" He asked. What do the panel think? I prefer Ward in 35... slightly bigger orchestra, more string heft & beauty, modern instruments, horn in tune and doesn't grate, as sprightly as Pinnock...

[Master Jacques]

AMcG seemed a bit critical of the choice of Pinnock for Symphony 35. "Haven't things move on?" He asked. What do the panel think? I prefer Ward in 35... slightly bigger orchestra, more string heft & beauty, modern instruments, horn in tune and doesn't grate, as sprightly as Pinnock...

I think from another thread you must be gunning for Pinnock! The answer to your question is of course a straight "no"; and this Nick Ward record - though perfectly decent - is dull in orchestral timbres and middle-of-the-road interpretatively, more of an old-fashioned throwback (1970's "chamber"-sound orchestral Haydn) than "moving on". I think you perhaps you misinterpreted the presenter's comment, in the light of your own tastes. What he was actually saying was, "35 years on and it still sounds as fresh as paint" - which it does.

[Mal]

I think from another thread you must be gunning for Pinnock! The answer to your question is of course a straight "no"; and this Nick Ward record - though perfectly decent - is dull in orchestral timbres and middle-of-the-road interpretatively, more of an old-fashioned throwback (1970's "chamber"-sound orchestral Haydn) than "moving on". I think you perhaps you misinterpreted the presenter's comment, in the light of your own tastes. What he was actually saying was, "35 years on and it still sounds as fresh as paint" - which it does.

Where does AMcG say it "sounds as fresh as paint"? I had the impression he questioned the choice, and then moved on quickly. Maybe you misinterpreted AMcG's comment based on your own tastes. OK Ward could be better, but I think he's learned something from the liveliness of period performances and has "moved on" in that way.

I'm just listening to Dorati on You Tube; it's lively, imaginative, and beautiful. Maybe I need to go backwards rather than forwards!

[cloughie]

Where does AMcG say it "sounds as fresh as paint"? I had the impression he questioned the choice, and then moved on quickly. Maybe you misinterpreted AMcG's comment based on your own tastes. OK Ward could be better, but I think he's learned something from the liveliness of period performances and has "moved on" in that way.

I'm just listening to Dorati on You Tube; it's lively, imaginative, and beautiful. Maybe I need to go backwards rather than forwards!

A quick check of my index shows I have three recordings of No35 - Pinnock, Hogwood and Dorati - not a work I know well and maybe I have not played them as they are all in box sets - I remedy that and report back.

[Bryn]

A quick check of my index shows I have three recordings of No35 - Pinnock, Hogwood and Dorati - not a work I know well and maybe I have not played them as they are all in box sets - I remedy that and report back.

What, no Adam Fischer? I thought everybody here would have that, in one form or another.

[cloughie]

What, no Adam Fischer? I thought everybody here would have that, in one form or another.

No, Bryn - if I live long enough to play all the Haydn Symphony CDs I already have I will then add the Adam Fischer whether I need it or not!

[Mal]

What, no Adam Fischer? I thought everybody here would have that...

I have the box set but 35 has a big "x" beside it in my listening record (= didn't like it). Now I've listened to Dorati's 35 in full... couldn't stop listening... wonderful performance... I'll have another listen to Fischer to see if him or me had the off day.

[Bryn]

I have the box set but 35 has a big "x" beside it in my listening record (= didn't like it). Now I've listened to Dorati's 35 in full... couldn't stop listening... wonderful performance... I'll have another listen to Fischer to see if him or me was having an off day

My #5 was not intended as a recommendation, just a nod towards the Fischer survey's ubiquity.

[Mal]

It must have been me having an off day, I now like Fischer's performance! Perhaps I found the andante and minuet a bit draggy coming after the never-lapsing wonders of 28-34.

[LeMartinPecheur]

AMcG seemed a bit critical of the choice of Pinnock for Symphony 35. "Haven't things move on?" He asked. What do the panel think?

I had the impression that AMcG's question was simply for continuity, almost rhetorical, as if he knew what the answer would be and he wasn't arguing with it at all.

[Master Jacques]

I'm just listening to Dorati on You Tube; it's lively, imaginative, and beautiful. Maybe I need to go backwards rather than forwards!

Dorati's Haydn has had its day, in my opinion: unwieldy, bass-heavy, too fast and too slick by half. He skates over the surface and makes it difficult to hear what's going on inside the music, especially in Haydn's operatic repertoire, where he makes this good music sound empty of interest. I remember the revelation I had when I listened to the Hungaraton sets of Haydn's stage repertoire - genial, glowing and with a million colours in the music (and just as "romantic" in orchestral palette, by the way, not HIPP). For the first time I realised what these works were about - something you'd never guess from the Dorati sets. And the same is true for Haydn's orchestral music.

As for Mr McGregor, I am parsing his sub-text, of course, not what he literally uttered. It's his job to question his guests with the "alternative thesis" proposed by such listeners as yourself, perhaps - so he was merely doing his job. Underneath that, he's a big Pinnock fan.

[Master Jacques]

I had the impression that AMcG's question was simply for continuity, almost rhetorical, as if he knew what the answer would be and he wasn't arguing with it at all.

Quite - much better put than I did!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think from another thread you must be gunning for Pinnock! The answer to your question is of course a straight "no"; and this Nick Ward record - though perfectly decent - is dull in orchestral timbres and middle-of-the-road interpretatively, more of an old-fashioned throwback (1970's "chamber"-sound orchestral Haydn) than "moving on".

Yes - "perfectly decent": I would have enjoyed hearing it in a concert, and much prefer it to Dorati's; but those "modern" instruments don't half Botox Haydn's timbres, smoothing out the characteristic (and character-ful) sounds of the instruments of his time that he writes so superbly for. Tempi are a bit soft-centred, too - turning the composer into a well-behaved middle-class English prep-schoolboy.

Pinnock's recordings maintain the virtues they've always shown - but my favourite recording is Solomons' with L'Estro Armonico (recorded in the early '80s - so a little earlier than Pinnock's).

[Mal]

One period performance I do like is Bruggen/OAE in their 43, 50, 58, 59 disk. Wigmore in Gramophone compares Bruggen/OAE in their Sturm und Drang set to earlier sets. Maybe this is the kind of performance AMcG was thinking about in talking about "moving on":

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/haydn-sturm-und-drang-symphonies

[Master Jacques]

One period performance I do like is Bruggen/OAE in their 43, 50, 58, 59 disk. Wigmore in Gramophone compares Bruggen/OAE in their Sturm und Drang set to earlier sets. Maybe this is the kind of performance AMcG was thinking about in talking about "moving on":

I retain a soft spot for Brüggen's 5-CD set of the "Sturm und Drang" symphonies, as it was recorded down the road from me, at Blackheath Concert Halls - but all well over 20 years ago now (1994-97). Always more of a bridge between HIPP and the late romantic way of playing Haydn (given the conductor's lyricism and relaxed tempi) it now seems very traditional, and pleasantly aged (like a good wine!) in a way which Weil and Pinnock do not in these mid-period Haydn symphonies.

Listening to Brüggen now - still with pleasure - leaves me with a sense of how meaningless any talk of "moving forwards" (or backwards indeed) in this repertoire is - I'm sure that sentiment was what the presenter wanted to elicit from his guest, and that indeed is what he got. We may have "moved on" from Pinnock's way, but to talk of "moving forward" is as meaningless as dissing Elgar's own performances of his symphonies, or Schwarzkopf's Strauss. All these good things are still to be respected, and cherished.