HvK best at ... ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is this the ‘cow pretending to be a dog’ recording? Whatever we think about it now, it must have been quite something when it came out.

IIRC, that comment was made about Karajan's later, EMI, recording with the VPO and Mutter. (I don't think that the BPO/Schwalbé recording was discussed in that particular BaL. )

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Something disappointing about HvK in general is that he doesn't seem to have been at all curious about repertoire outside the established canon (with the strange exception of Honegger, I wonder how that happened, and I suppose the Second Viennese School) - with his reputation and clout he could easily have expanded that canon rather than entrenching it further, but no: for him it consisted only of works that others before him had anointed as masterpieces.

In recordings, no (although that's to forget his recording of Orff's De temporum fine comoedia, which is in general terms a very good idea) - but he did programme Henze and Penderecki in his concerts - and attended performances of Contemporary Music conducted by others - he first encountered Josephine Barstow when she was in Penderecki's Black Mask.

There are/were recordings of Ives from his first BPO tour of the US on youTube, too (as well as the Webern Op 10, which he didn't record).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There are/were recordings of Ives from his first BPO tour of the US on youTube, too (as well as the Webern Op 10, which he didn't record).

Oh no there aren't. The Ives is with the LAPO, from a concert in 1959:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcjcVRCDg48

... and the only HvK Live Webern seems to be the Op5 pieces with the NYPO from the year before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIVOsMgtWG8

[Richard Barrett]

In recordings, no (although that's to forget his recording of Orff's De temporum fine comoedia, which is in general terms a very good idea)

I have a lot of time for that work actually. (DARK MATTER contains a setting of one of the ancient Greek texts used in the Orff, which I certainly wouldn't have encountered without it!). I knew that he had conducted a couple of small pieces of Henze around 1960 but I didn't know about Penderecki - this was only Polymorphia as far as I can find out. I know he also conducted Messiaen's Réveil des oiseaux but claimed not to understand it. But these are really exceptions that prove the rule, are not they.

When I was thinking about his adherence to "the canon" I was also thinking of his not seeming to have had much interest - as a recording artist, I guess I should add - in lesser known works by "the greats".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, absolutely - but he wasn't the only maestro from that generation to "prove this particular rule" (Guilini? Kleiber jnr?)

[Richard Barrett]

Yes, absolutely - but he wasn't the only maestro from that generation to "prove this particular rule" (Guilini? Kleiber jnr?)

Indeed - but he recorded far more stuff than either of them, especially CK of course, much of it several times.

[doversoul1]

Yes, absolutely - but he wasn't the only maestro from that generation to "prove this particular rule" (Guilini? Kleiber jnr?)

Also it may be that in those days, most listeners/market demands were only too happy to be able to have recordings of famous works.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

EMI never really worked out how to record Karajan, post-

I’m not so sure about that. Very strong Aida, Meistersinger, Franck Symphony, Salome (though that was actually recorded by Decca).

In my controversial opinion, it was DG who lost it with Karajan in the digital era.

[Barbirollians]

I did not get on with much HVK when I first started buying records as this was in the 1980s when many of his interpretations seemed on autopilot and his dominance and ubiquity was off putting . I had mid priced LPs of Symphonies 3,4,&8 of his 1960s Beethoven’s cycle and I liked them a great deal more than the stuff emerging in the 1980s . Then I came across his Sibelius 4 on EMI which blew me away an extraordinarily bleak and wonderful reading.

Since his death I have come to know a lot more of his earlier work and some of his very late and appreciate it . The late VPO Bruckner, that New Year’s Concert, the utterly wonderful Philharmonia Beethoven Symphony cycle with one of the greatest of all Pastoral Symphony recordings , the 1970s EMI Bruckner , the early Tchaikovsky symphony recordings , the superb Decca Puccini opera sets .

Other stuff I still struggle with especially his Mahler which I do not get on with at all but he was truly a great in a lot of repertoire.

[silvestrione]

Something disappointing about HvK in general is that he doesn't seem to have been at all curious about repertoire outside the established canon (with the strange exception of Honegger, I wonder how that happened, and I suppose the Second Viennese School) - with his reputation and clout he could easily have expanded that canon rather than entrenching it further, but no: for him it consisted only of works that others before him had anointed as masterpieces.

Is that a little harsh? First recordings of works by Bartok and Strauss, early recordings of Britten, Vaughan Williams, Honegger, quite a range of Stravinsky pieces...there's probably more.

[verismissimo]

Is that a little harsh? First recordings of works by Bartok and Strauss, early recordings of Britten, Vaughan Williams, Honegger, quite a range of Stravinsky pieces...there's probably more.

And Kurt Leimer's 4th piano concerto and concerto for left hand, Philharmonia 1954, composer at the piano. I'd never heard of him!

[edashtav]

Is that a little harsh? First recordings of works by Bartok and Strauss, early recordings of Britten, Vaughan Williams, Honegger, quite a range of Stravinsky pieces...there's probably more.

And... there is a transcription of a live performance (1953) with the RAI of Walton's first symphony on Youtube. For all of its rough edges, Karajan's insights shine through:

https://youtu.be/uBVXLubqBHg

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And... there is a transcription of a live performance (1953) with the RAI of Walton's first symphony on Youtube. For all of its rough edges, Karajan's insights shine through:
https://youtu.be/uBVXLubqBHg

I don't think that "cuts" are "insights", ed. This is definitely a performance that demonstrates the conductor's arrogance towards works for which he had slight regard. (Similarly, his changes to Tippett's structuring of A Child of Our Time, which it is a blessing doesn't survive on a recording.)

[Bryn]

And... there is a transcription of a live performance (1953) with the RAI of Walton's first symphony on Youtube. For all of its rough edges, Karajan's insights shine through:
https://youtu.be/uBVXLubqBHg

Well, some of Walton's 1st, anyway. HvK knew better than WW what should and should not be in the Symphony and what was best left out.

[edashtav]

I don't think that "cuts" are "insights", ed. This is definitely a performance that demonstrates the conductor's arrogance towards works for which he had slight regard. (Similarly, his changes to Tippett's structuring of A Child of Our Time, which it is a blessing doesn't survive on a recording.)

Well, some of Walton's 1st, anyway. HvK knew better than WW what should and should not be in the Symphony and what was best left out.

Well, well, chaps: there can be no arguing with cuts ain't insights except to quip that they may bring the end in sight! I doubt whether there are many cognoscenti who dissent from the common view that Karajan was arrogant.
However, I'll stick to my guns and claim that the bits which remain are presented in a clear and cogent fashion in a manner that was uncommon amongst British Provincial orchestras in the early 1950s... when I first heard the BMO playing it.