Collections of Mozart symphonies

[vinteuil]

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... for them as likes Harnoncourt in Mozart, this set is eminently recommendable -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0000AS2Q5

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[verismissimo]

Just re-listened to the Harnoncourt woodwind concertos CD, having been listening a lot recently to Mackerras. CMW so plump, rounded … Viennese compared with the lean, sprightly Prague CO. Quite surprised.

[jayne lee wilson]

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... for them as likes Harnoncourt in Mozart, this set is eminently recommendable -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0000AS2Q5

.

He set down the final trilogy three times, from the RCOA in the 80s, to the COE in the early 90s, then that final majestic testament with the CMW...all Gramophone-reviewed very well as you'd imagine, but I don't know the earlier two well enough to compare in detail. That last CMW one, the "Instrumental Oratorium" is simply beyond compare.

It's no rough beast, though you may feel that a terrible beauty is born....

[Bryn]

He set down the final trilogy three times, from the RCOA in the 80s, to the COE in the early 90s, then that final majestic testament with the CMW...all Gramophone-reviewed very well as you'd imagine, but I don't know the earlier two well enough to compare in detail. That last CMW one, the "Instrumental Oratorium" is simply beyond compare.

It's no rough beast, though you may feel that a terrible beauty is born....

I'd forgotten those CMW recordings were in the Sony complete Harnoncourt box. They come on CDs 35/36 buried beneath the piano concertos (CDs 33 and 34), in a separate section from the early symphonies (CDs 18-29). Must give them a spin.

[I have to say that I found the first few minutes of No. 39 pretty scrappy. It got much better as it went on though. Much enjoyed the whole of No. 40 though.]

[Mal]

I did some comparative listening to the later symphonies in Spotify premium a few years ago and Klemperer was often my favourite. Spotted a box set going for a reasonable price on Amazon:

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Symphonies-Serenades-Klemperer-Legacy/dp/B00ATZPAR4

So far, just listened to 25 and prefer it to the others I've listened to in the last few weeks (in preference order: Klemperer, Wordsworth, Marriner, Pinnock, Britten.) Klemperer is really fiery in I, lyrical in II, gets the transition right in III, and is not too fast in IV. He seems to get everything just right, for me. The 1956 sound is good, with a 2000 re-mastering, better than Marriner and much better Britten.

Listened to Harnoncourt/CMW 25 right after Klemperer on Amazon Unlimited and had to quit I, the brass section were in full bull in a china shop mood. Oboe and strings quite lyrical though, so I skipped to II and that was quite beautiful, the bull was snoring gently, and letting the strings and woodwind inspect the china with care and imagination. But I preferred Klemperer's II (and certainly his I) He makes the Harnoncourt's strings sound undernourished. The bull woke up in III, so I quit completely then...

I thought Wordsworth did a good job with 39 on Naxos, along with a good 34 and 35 (the best £1.20 I've spent this year!) I also rated Klemperer in this, streaming. So I look forward to listening to both performances in the box - both highly rated by the critics.

For me, Harnoncourt makes 40 too much of a life & death experience, and the bull's horns threw me out of the arena again. Also, there's too much stopping and starting to try and induce dramatic effect. And the strings are a bit thin. Nice woodwind, well recorded. But I like Marriner better here, he injects some Sturm and Drang, but keeps if flowing, playing Harnoncourts Nemesis in a direct and clean presentation of great beauty.

[Dave2002]

I think I have that box, or one very like it. I agree Klemperer is very good, but yet again Colin Davis has disappeared from view. CD is very good in some of the symphonies, including some of the earlier ones such as 25, though I also liked at least one of his versions of the Jupiter. As I recall he gets the 3rd movement to dance in a way that few others do - and much as I like Walter, CD beats most in any movement which has the possibility of a “springy” dance step.

I noticed the same in other music conducted by CD - such as Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring - some of the brutality is still there, but it “dances” more than the more barbaric versions.

[Mal]

In my spotify comparisons for 29 I rated only Karajan/DG as a "possible library choice", Pinnock not bad, and rejected Walter... mostly for sound, but also the lack of dancing you're talking about. Haven't heard Klemperer in 29 but the critics rate him, so I look forward to it from my box. Meanwhile I'm trying to find some love for Harnoncourt/CMW, and I'm finding it in 10 & 42 - even Ritter loves him in these. No bull, the manner is pleasing, good string tone, and the brass section under control and in tune. But he has heavy competition from the buttery smooth string sound of Ward/NCO/Naxos in 10.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A favourite early Mozart symphony of mine is no. 9, with a beautiful flute solo in the slow movement. It's so good that I arranged it for flute and piano to play in concerts.

[Dave2002]

In my spotify comparisons for 29 I rated only Karajan/DG as a "possible library choice", Pinnock not bad, and rejected Walter... mostly for sound, but also the lack of dancing you're talking about. Haven't heard Klemperer in 29 but the critics rate him, so I look forward to it from my box.

But he has heavy competition from the buttery smooth string sound of Ward/NCO/Naxos in 10.

Interesting about the Ward Naxos recording. I may look out for that. I’d say that Walter’s recordings are really not bad at all for sound, though if you listen on a streaming service such as Spotify they may not be good. Go for CDs or SACDs if you can find them in decent remasterings. Walter goes for smooth generally refined sound, whereas Davis does long sweeping phrases and dances.

I’m not a committed Karajan fan, though some of his recordings/performances are superb - Beethoven 9 and Bruckner 8 and Mahler 9, but I wouldn’t put him tops in Mozart - except perhaps for the horn concertos with Dennis Brain.

Mackerras with the SCO is very good in some, and try Bruggen for an alternative to big band performances.

[jayne lee wilson]

I did some comparative listening to the later symphonies in Spotify premium a few years ago and Klemperer was often my favourite. Spotted a box set going for a reasonable price on Amazon:

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Symphonies-Serenades-Klemperer-Legacy/dp/B00ATZPAR4

So far, just listened to 25 and prefer it to the others I've listened to in the last few weeks (in preference order: Klemperer, Wordsworth, Marriner, Pinnock, Britten.) Klemperer is really fiery in I, lyrical in II, gets the transition right in III, and is not too fast in IV. He seems to get everything just right, for me. The 1956 sound is good, with a 2000 re-mastering, better than Marriner and much better Britten.

Listened to Harnoncourt/CMW 25 right after Klemperer on Amazon Unlimited and had to quit I, the brass section were in full bull in a china shop mood. Oboe and strings quite lyrical though, so I skipped to II and that was quite beautiful, the bull was snoring gently, and letting the strings and woodwind inspect the china with care and imagination. But I preferred Klemperer's II (and certainly his I) He makes the Harnoncourt's strings sound undernourished. The bull woke up in III, so I quit completely then...

I thought Wordsworth did a good job with 39 on Naxos, along with a good 34 and 35 (the best £1.20 I've spent this year!) I also rated Klemperer in this, streaming. So I look forward to listening to both performances in the box - both highly rated by the critics.

For me, Harnoncourt makes 40 too much of a life & death experience, and the bull's horns threw me out of the arena again. Also, there's too much stopping and starting to try and induce dramatic effect. And the strings are a bit thin. Nice woodwind, well recorded. But I like Marriner better here, he injects some Sturm and Drang, but keeps if flowing, playing Harnoncourts Nemesis in a direct and clean presentation of great beauty.

Apart from sharing your admiration for Klemperer's fiery 7/1956 No.25 (IIRC the first 25 I ever owned, HIPPs avant-la-lettre, or more probably neue sachlichkeit) as an Harnoncourt devotee I disagree with most of this, but wanted to thank you for a very enjoyable post!

(Have you been watching this, by any chance....?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBXVM7oUPVk

[silvestrione]

I’m not a committed Karajan fan, though some of his recordings/performances are superb - Beethoven 9 and Bruckner 8 and Mahler 9, but I wouldn’t put him tops in Mozart - except perhaps for the horn concertos with Dennis Brain.
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I would have expected to agree with you here, but I've just done a comparison of Adam Fischer's Danish version of no. 33 (which I enjoyed, especially the last two movements) with the 1946 Karajan VPO in the Warner box. Apart from being amazed at what they've been able to do with the sound quality, I thought it was marvellous: they play as though they have been born with Mozart's style in their bones, but it's style raised to a higher power, and what I had thought was a fairly ordinary Mozart symphony became a joyous one (maybe some thankfulness there in the music making, to be back making music, though I may be reading that in!).

[Mal]

Interesting about the Ward Naxos recording. I may look out for that. I’d say that Walter’s recordings are really not bad at all for sound...

Which specific Walter CD(s) do you rate the most highly? Amazon reviewer pclaudel put me off the "Walter plays Mozart" box with the most detailed remastering review I've ever read:

https://www.amazon.com/Walter-Conducts-Mozart-Wolfgang-Amadeus/product-reviews/B0056K4VRM/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_hist_2?filterByStar=two_star&pageNumber=1

Shame really, I have Walter plays Brahms and Walter plays Beethoven boxes and like them a lot. But, who knows, pclaudel might be talking rubbish at great length!

I’m also not not a committed Karajan fan, just a fan of 29. I just listened to Klemperer's 29 and found him far too slow, so streamed Karajan again and still like it. But then I streamed Wordsworth/Naxos and preferred that! Penguin make Wordsworth's four naxos disks key choices for the late symphonies. Having bought three of them, for pennies, second hand, I can see why! Ward also gets some very honourable mentions. Ritter in "third ear" really likes Ward a lot, making him a key choice for all the early symphonies. But he is less appreciative of Wordsworth, dismissing him in 29, so he isn't always right :)

I agree that streaming, even at premium quality, can never be more than a rough indicator. I dismissed one of Ward's Haydn performances as sounding too thin after hearing it on Spotify Premium, but then really liked the CD I picked it up in a charity shop.

I have the first Linn two-fer of Mackerras/SCO and only really liked their Jupiter, although it s now my top choice (with Wordsworth close behind...). Bruggen's "Haffner" just arrived, bought after greatly admiring it on streaming.

[Dave2002]

You raise some interesting questions. Re Walter's Mozart - I had all the late symphonies on LP - and loved them. I also bought them again on CD. For a while some were available on SACD, and also as others have noted there have been some issued in Japan which would appear to be very good. Unfortunately Sony seem to have discontinued SACDs early on, and some of those are I believe "true" SACDs which can only be played on SACD players, unlike most of the more recent ones which often have three layers - CD, SACD stereo and SACD multi-channel surround.

Besides the Columbia SO versions, there have also been some others, possibly even including some which were transferred from 78s. I still have Walter's Eine Kleine Nachtmusick with the VPO on 78s - (I mean I actually have the 78s!) - and I haven't heard many better - or perhaps I'm just attached to it because it was the first I knew. I think there have been box sets of Walter's performances taken from recordings in the 1930s to the 1940s. The recordings are almost certainly dull, but the performances may be good - these tend to appear as reissues on Membran or Documents.

However, Andrew Manze's version from a few years ago is also very good.

I have never really got on with Barry Wordsworth's Naxos recordings, and disagreed completely with the Penguin Guide's view. To me these were just plain dull, and I have revisited them several times.

I was interested to have another look at Klemperer. Some of the late Mozart symphonies are on SACD, and there is also a recording of 25, 29 and 31 from EMI - https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Sympho...ateway&sr=8-14

However I noted a couple of live recordings from 1964 - one with the Royal Danish Orchestra , and one with the Berlin PO. These are on Testament - I've not heard them.

https://www.amazon.com/Klemperer-Conducts-Beethoven-Mozart-2002-06-11/dp/B013TZSJZA/ref=sr_1_20?keywords=Klemperer+Mozart&qid=1550270248&s=gateway&sr=8-20

https://www.amazon.com/Otto-Klemperer-Live-Berlin-Philharmonic/dp/B0000AKPFU/ref=sr_1_16?keywords=Klemperer+Mozart&qid=1550270106&s=gateway&sr=8-16

There is also a set of Klemperer with the VPO, but it only contains one Mozart symphony - 41 - https://www.amazon.com/Live-Broadcas...0140&s=gateway

I will be very happy to review Karajan again - time permitting. I think some of his earlier recordings may actually be more interesting than the later ones - at least in Mozart works. I've possibly got some of those recordings in one of the large Karajan boxes from EMI. I will also look at Ward - as I have heard good things about his performances.

[Mal]

I have never really got on with Barry Wordsworth's Naxos recordings, and disagreed completely with the Penguin Guide's view. To me these were just plain dull, and I have revisited them several times.

I found the Wordsworth 36 (Linz) disk a bit dull and placed it on my "to charity shop" pile, but then I listened to two other discs in the series and greatly enjoyed them. So I'll give his full set a few listens, especially at second hand prices.

I was interested to have another look at Klemperer. Some of the late Mozart symphonies are on SACD, and there is also a recording of 25, 29 and 31 from EMI - https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Sympho...ateway&sr=8-14

Note the box set contains two performances of many of the symphonies, all EMI, PO/NPO, from 1954-65. The Pickwick group (IMP) are selling new CDs at rock bottom prices on ebay, including some Klemperer. This just arrived:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mozart-Eine-Kleine-Nachtmusik-Handel-Concerto-Grosso-Klemperer-CD/272945974776

[Dave2002]

The Pickwick group (IMP) are selling new CDs at rock bottom prices on ebay, including some Klemperer. This just arrived:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mozart-Ei...D/272945974776

Odd that - I wonder how they got the recordings. There's a Beecham one, and Leonard Bernstein doing Gershwin, plus one of Jimmy Smith. I gave up after 4-5 screenfuls, but might look again.