Furtwangler Eroicas

[Barbirollians]

I have always preferred his live account in the big 4CD Tahra box to his studio recording . I recall when that box was issued Rob Cowan declared it to be the best Eroica performance he had ever heard.

Santa kindly brought me the 2CD Audite set of Furtwangler Lucerne Festival Beethoven and Schumann performances from August 1953 including the presumed lost Manfred Overture .

It contains another quite sensational recording of the Eroica from the original radio tapes. it needs to be played at quite a high volume but heavens above it is gripping. What one would give to hear Beethoven interpretation of this quality in a concert hall nowadays.

What is your favourite Furtwangler Beethoven ?

[Petrushka]

The 1951 Bayreuth and 1954 Lucerne/Philharmonia 9ths are very special indeed. The 1942 BPO 9th is an incendiary performance but I find the sound a bit hard to take.

However, my favourite WF Beethoven recording is the 1944 Eroica with the VPO. The sound in the transfers I've heard is perfectly ok and it's unbelievable that such a recording could have come out of the horrors of the Second World War. The performance is electric.

[richardfinegold]

The 1944 is actually the first recording of the Eroica that I ever heard, my sister had purchased it on an ultra budget label in the early 1970. Asa teenager I played it obsessively before I ever heard another recording and no other recording has ever done it for me, including another account of Furtwangler from the 1950s.

[Once Was 4]

The 1944 is actually the first recording of the Eroica that I ever heard, my sister had purchased it on an ultra budget label in the early 1970. Asa teenager I played it obsessively before I ever heard another recording and no other recording has ever done it for me, including another account of Furtwangler from the 1950s.

OK not Furtwangler but have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y718_f3ezpc

Would anybody dare to argue with this man? Mind you there are some great pleyers there: the front desk of cellos is Tibor de Machula who left the BPO for Amsterdam after the war and Arthur Troester who also left the BPO after the war and joined an orchestra in Hamburg where he also became a famous teacher. I often wonder what it was like for these players seeing the last of the Third Reich: their hall soon to be in ruins, two of them murdered by their own countrymen, two others committing suicide and three joining the military voluntarily - one being captured by the Russians and never being seen again. But yet that fine orchestra was up and running again within two weeks of the war's end. Sorry flights of fancy.

[richardfinegold]

OK not Furtwangler but have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y718_f3ezpc

Would anybody dare to argue with this man? Mind you there are some great pleyers there: the front desk of cellos is Tibor de Machula who left the BPO for Amsterdam after the war and Arthur Troester who also left the BPO after the war and joined an orchestra in Hamburg where he also became a famous teacher. I often wonder what it was like for these players seeing the last of the Third Reich: their hall soon to be in ruins, two of them murdered by their own countrymen, two others committing suicide and three joining the military voluntarily - one being captured by the Russians and never being seen again. But yet that fine orchestra was up and running again within two weeks of the war's end. Sorry flights of fancy.

I've never heard any Kna Beethoven, only his Bruckner and Wagner. One of the comments in You Tube points out the similarity between Kna's physical resemblance to Lurch, the butler in the Addams Family, which got chuckle out of me.
the BPO and WWII is quite a story. First they had to endure the removal of their Jewish Players, which included Szymon Goldberg, the Concertmaster. Then, the Nazis uses the Orchestra as a Political Football in the years leading up to the War, and toyed with Furtwangler.
Then, the whole facade of trying to continue Cultural Life as if nothing unusual was happening, even including air raids during concerts. Then the final call up of all German Males in the last days of the War. No wonder why why playing for Karajan must have seemed like easy peasy after those times.

[gradus]

OK not Furtwangler but have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y718_f3ezpc

Would anybody dare to argue with this man? Mind you there are some great pleyers there: the front desk of cellos is Tibor de Machula who left the BPO for Amsterdam after the war and Arthur Troester who also left the BPO after the war and joined an orchestra in Hamburg where he also became a famous teacher. I often wonder what it was like for these players seeing the last of the Third Reich: their hall soon to be in ruins, two of them murdered by their own countrymen, two others committing suicide and three joining the military voluntarily - one being captured by the Russians and never being seen again. But yet that fine orchestra was up and running again within two weeks of the war's end. Sorry flights of fancy.

A very distinctive seating for the orchestra with celli spread across behind opposing firsts and seconds. Extraordinary speed for the final bars and the restricted sound adds that almost demonic quality that also characterises the Furtwangler Brahms war time recordings and gives them such elemental power. I find it difficult to listen to these recordings though for obvious reasons.

[Petrushka]

Anyone interested in the Berlin Philharmonic during the Nazi era should read The Reichs Orchestra by Misha Aster.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reichs-Orchestra-Berlin-Philharmonic-1933-1945/dp/0285638939

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Anyone interested in the Berlin Philharmonic during the Nazi era should read The Reichs Orchestra by Misha Aster.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reichs-Orch...5/dp/028563893

- and this DVD (also available on Blu-Ray):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reichsorchester-DVD-Enrique-Sanchez-Lansch/dp/B0012K53UO

[Barbirollians]

Anyone interested in the Berlin Philharmonic during the Nazi era should read The Reichs Orchestra by Misha Aster.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reichs-Orch.../dp/0285638939

Cheers Petrushka

[Once Was 4]

Cheers Petrushka

A fascinating book but, beware, it is far from well-written and contains some glaring typos and oddities of style. And some left wing commentators claim that it glosses over, or sanitizes, the truth in some parts. I would love to hear the opinions of others who have read it.

[Once Was 4]

I was lucky enough to work with Szymon Golberg when he was an elderly man and Chief Conductor of the Manchester Camerata. A very gentle and sofly spoken man, revered by the players but still very slightly intimidating. It would have been wonderful to talk to him but those were the days when you kept your distance from most conductors; on NO account would you have addressed them by their first names which is the norm now.

Have a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_KHy0x5B4s

The leader has been identified as Szymon Golberg (who I remember as a little bald headed old man).

[pastoralguy]

A fascinating book but, beware, it is far from well-written and contains some glaring typos and oddities of style. And some left wing commentators claim that it glosses over, or sanitizes, the truth in some parts. I would love to hear the opinions of others who have read it.

There's an accompanying film where the Berlin Philharmonic's involvement, or not, with the Naxi regime is discussed at some length. It's very powerful and was made just before many of these retired players must have passed on. Szymon Goldberg, as mentioned by Once Was 4, was cited as a shining example of leadership before he was essentially booted out. Some very sad stories are recounted.

It's available as a documentary on the Berliner Philharmoniker's website as well as on DVD. It's well worth seeing for anyone interested in those difficult days. (And I thank God I've never had to make the decisions that so many people of that period must have been presented with).

[pastoralguy]

I was lucky enough to work with Szymon Golberg when he was an elderly man and Chief Conductor of the Manchester Camerata. A very gentle and sofly spoken man, revered by the players but still very slightly intimidating. It would have been wonderful to talk to him but those were the days when you kept your distance from most conductors; on NO account would you have addressed them by their first names which is the norm now.

Have a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_KHy0x5B4s

The leader has been identified as Szymon Golberg (who I remember as a little bald headed old man).

With regard to the YouTube clip, did I see Paul Hindemith playing the viola?

[richardfinegold]

There's an accompanying film where the Berlin Philharmonic's involvement, or not, with the Naxi regime is discussed at some length. It's very powerful and was made just before many of these retired players must have passed on. Szymon Goldberg, as mentioned by Once Was 4, was cited as a shining example of leadership before he was essentially booted out. Some very sad stories are recounted.

It's available as a documentary on the Berliner Philharmoniker's website as well as on DVD. It's well worth seeing for anyone interested in those difficult days. (And I thank God I've never had to make the decisions that so many people of that period must have been presented with).

I haven’t seen it for a couple of years, and I gave it away in disgust after seeing it, but what I thought was remarkable about it was the obtuseness of the players. One of them says something like well, we were told that the Jewish members of the Orchestra were being sent to. Concentration Camp, and we thought they will get a lot of fresh air and sunshine, and then we never thought of them again. The same player crows about how after the Germans formally surrendered, the Rest of them voted to expel the active Nazis from their midst, as if expecting to be congratulated for that opportunistic act. And about half the movie seemed dedicated to explaining how Furtwangler avoided giving the Nazi Salute to Hitler, which did take some guts but reflects more on the Conductor than the Orchestra.
The most significant thing about the movie is that the BPO felt compelled to make it, to examine their role as a Cultural Prop as the Devils’ favored Orchestra. They don’t reach any interesting conclusions as a result of their examination and I think that this is hardly essential.

[Once Was 4]

There's an accompanying film where the Berlin Philharmonic's involvement, or not, with the Naxi regime is discussed at some length. It's very powerful and was made just before many of these retired players must have passed on. Szymon Goldberg, as mentioned by Once Was 4, was cited as a shining example of leadership before he was essentially booted out. Some very sad stories are recounted.

It's available as a documentary on the Berliner Philharmoniker's website as well as on DVD. It's well worth seeing for anyone interested in those difficult days. (And I thank God I've never had to make the decisions that so many people of that period must have been presented with).

I am told that, a year or so ago, only two were left: Johannes Bastiaan (who was a front desk first violinist who wore very distinctive spectacles); I think that in the film he is the man being supported by a lady (his daughter?) and also interviewed in what looks like a very upmarket home music studio. And Karl Hartmann (a relatively young bass player who had been invalided out of the Whermacht after injuries at the Russian front). He wrote a couple of books about the BPO (as did one of the timpanists) which I have been tring to locate.

Can anybody confirm this?

No doubt they are gone now.

BTW: a surprising number of the BPO players of that era seemed to have been not German.