Stephen Johnson on symphonic releases, 16.6.18 (esp. Bruckner)

**ferneyhoughgeliebte** · 27-06-18, 14:55

Usually referred to as a reference to - or an "echo of" - the slow "movement"of the Wanderer Fantasie (as on the WIKI entry for the Bruckner, and a programme note by Osmo Tapio). Well ... s'ppose (Taa da da Daa di dah [Schubert]/ Taaa taa taaa Daaaaa Teedah [Bruckner]) but the surrounding material and the double flattened fifth note (the "Tee") - and the way the succeeding phrases are so different means that I'd never thought of this connection before. Don't think I need to bear it in mind when I next listen to the Symphony, come to that!

**Cockney Sparrow** · 27-06-18, 15:16

It was a pleasure to hear Stephen Johnson, and the discs he drew to our attention.

**jayne lee wilson** · 27-06-18, 15:18

I agree with him about the Gergiev 1st..awful.... but on the basis of excerpts, am far less enthusiastic about the 3rd... beautiful orchestral sound but just too rich, muted, and grandiose a sonority. (Disagree that there's anything special about the scherzo here).
Cathedral acoustics aren't everything, you know (and a hoary old cliché of Bruckner commentaries).
And it's never a good sign when reviewers don't give you the all-important edition - in this case, Nowak 1889. Please let's stop pretending this doesn't matter anymore! It is very significant and most especially in the 3rd (!) as any true Brucknerian knows. Wise up everyone, things have moved on.

For a new and exciting adventure on No.3 go to Venzago (1889) or Andreae (1890 Rattig); or from the horse's mouth, VPO/ Knappertspbusch (Testament, 1890 Schalk). His Orfeo Bavarian live one is more exciting but with too many thrill & spills for general recommendation.
But please try to start with the 1873 Original, in whatever recording (Blomstedt, Young, Tintner etc).

As SJ was (thankfully), RO was highly critical about the long-drawn-out Nelsons 7th in Gramophone ("too much attention to the orchestra, not enough to the music"...again, on excerpted listening, I'm right with him)...Nelsons, fine conductor as he is, has so far shown little but a clichéd reaction to the performance traditions and possibilities Bruckner offers. 77' for a 7th? Haitink and others give you a wonderful experience in an hour or so.

My comments from a few weeks ago....
"Not much fiery, saucy passion about the 1st movement of Gergiev’s Bruckner 1: whose very steady tread seems to express more of a dogged obduracy; nor do the brasses cut through to enliven the texture, and clarity does suffer a little in this reverberant monasterial space. The tuttis are often rather thick and heavy, the dynamics earthbound.

The MPO have very beautiful strings, and Gergiev makes the most of them: he slows….right…down for lyrical episodes, drawing them out and dwelling on their lovely tone; and given the moderate basic pace, at some loss to the momentum of what should surely be a more excitable, youthfully adventurous piece. (This is even truer of the finale, I’m afraid…).
“Early Bruckner in the style of stereotyped later Bruckner” I thought.

So it goes on: an adagio, and a trio, with playing of great beauty and delicacy, but a scherzo waspishly fast but feeling hurried and featureless, without much character or subtlety (Gergiev’s vocal urgings all too obvious, without much evidence of orchestral reciprocation…).
Into the finale and the orchestral discipline seems to waver, clarity and articulation less than ideal, and even slower gesangsperioden. That marvellous moment when the development crashes into the recap is entirely without cumulative excitement - tempi way too steady when the orchestra should be reaping the whirlwind - and even the final cadence sounded laboured, over-emphatic.

I’m not even sure the much-vaunted St. Florian acoustic helps this music, or much early Bruckner at all really. But I never bought the line - which thankfully we hear less of these days - that this music needs large resonant spaces to make sense. Perhaps, with some styles of interpretation it may suit the chorales and conclusions of the 5th and 8th Symphonies; but elsewhere.…
Especially in Symphonies 1-3 and 6, my ears crave a tighter, drier sound: gutty rhythmic drive, melodic warmth, cutting-edge brass; not usually much experienced in basilicas - or cathedrals.
Ideal Bruckner 1st? If you haven’t yet heard it, find your way to Volkmar Andreae and the VSO in 1953 (Music & Arts): swift and sharply-cut; emotionally volatile, dynamically stunning; a performance of such brazen adventurousness, instinctive pace and melodic beauty that your Brucknerian world will shift upon its axis!"

***

Haven't heard Paul Hindemith's 7th but the excerpts sounded far better focussed, more idiomatic. Still I'd go for Andreae or Rosbaud before it.
The Knappertsbusch Köln 7th I know well - much to fascinate, , but I'd always recommend the 1949 Salzburg VPO one ahead of it (Orfeo again, a true classic).

I'm always loath to be too critical of reviewers but I did find this discussion to be unhelpfully verbose and vague. I look for insights, a focussed economy of word. (It's never easy, Mea Culpa etc

).
Stephen Johnson has in the past been a very good Gramophone reviewer and R3 broadcaster - not as his best here, I became quite fed up with it all.

***
With fhg about the Wanderer/8th adagio "reference"... sounds to me as a superficial rhythmic similarity, nothing more...

**Richard Tarleton** · 27-06-18, 16:10

Thanks as ever jayne - I was surprised when SJ said that (about 3rd edns), wondered if I'd misheard.

I've been listening repeatedly to Blomstedt's 3 (having acquired it more recently than the Tintner) - their timings in 1st 2 movements wildly different. I find Blomstedt revelatory. Robert Simpson on Bruckner 3 I find confusing because I'm not clear which version(s) he's talking about. As I'm easily confused, I haven't attempted the Venzago

My first 3 (1972) was a live Haitink/LPO which I take it was the - 1878 [?] version. In those days I also heard it performed by Horenstein and Alexander Gibson but it was still early days for me, no idea which editions they were playing

I thought the Hindemith 7 sounded interesting.

**jayne lee wilson** · 27-06-18, 17:41

Originally posted by Richard Tarleton View Post

Thanks as ever jayne - I was surprised when SJ said that (about 3rd edns), wondered if I'd misheard.

I've been listening repeatedly to Blomstedt's 3 (having acquired it more recently than the Tintner) - their timings in 1st 2 movements wildly different. I find Blomstedt revelatory. Robert Simpson on Bruckner 3 I find confusing because I'm not clear which version(s) he's talking about. As I'm easily confused, I haven't attempted the Venzago

My first 3 (1972) was a live Haitink/LPO which I take it was the - 1878 [?] version. In those days I also heard it performed by Horenstein and Alexander Gibson but it was still early days for me, no idea which editions they were playing

I thought the Hindemith 7 sounded interesting.

The revised edition of Dr Simpson's book (1992) makes clear that the earlier one (1967/77) only had 1877/8 and 1889/90 (which are very similar) for analysis.
The 1873 (ed. Nowak) edition was only published in 1977. So the later edition goes into great detail about this 1873 one, and Simpson's very clear belief in its superiority. And very influential it has been on me, and other Brucknerians.

Haitink's recordings of No.3 are always 1877/8, either Nowak (VPO, with scherzo coda) or Oeser (Amsterdam, without).

**Richard Tarleton** · 27-06-18, 18:24

Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

The revised edition of Dr Simpson's book (1992) makes clear that the earlier one (1967/77) only had 1877/8 and 1889/90 (which are very similar) for analysis.
The 1873 (ed. Nowak) edition was only published in 1977. So the later edition goes into great detail about this 1873 one, and Simpson's very clear belief in its superiority. And very influential it has been on me, and other Brucknerians.

Haitink's recordings of No.3 are always 1877/8, either Nowak (VPO, with scherzo coda) or Oeser (Amsterdam, without).

Many thanks jayne. I have the 1967 edn of R Simpson's book - bought new, a first edition no less - hence my confusion. I shall look out the 1992 edn.. I have the Haitink/Amsterdam recording, on LP, which I haven't listened to in a while.

**BBMmk2** · 28-06-18, 07:27

I won’t be missing much then as regards to the Gergiev/Bruckner release? Pity that. Anyone heard the BRSO/Jansons Bruckner 8th?

**Nick Armstrong** · 28-06-18, 14:16

Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post

Pity that. Anyone heard the BRSO/Jansons Bruckner 8th?

Yep: Stephen Johnson has.

Extracts sounded excellent.

**BBMmk2** · 29-06-18, 07:42

Originally posted by Caliban View Post

Yep: Stephen Johnson has.

Extracts sounded excellent.

Oh! Gawd! Just seen it was on the 16th!

**mathias broucek** · 29-06-18, 20:34

Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post

Anyone heard the BRSO/Jansons Bruckner 8th?

Paid only £14 for 24 bit from Presto. Enjoyed it but not bowled over on a first listen. Will return. A few days later while on my travels I returned to Maazel also with the BRSO which I preferred. Both 1890 Novak

**BBMmk2** · 30-06-18, 08:26

Originally posted by mathias broucek View Post

Paid only £14 for 24 bit from Presto. Enjoyed it but not bowled over on a first listen. Will return. A few days later while on my travels I returned to Maazel also with the BRSO which I preferred. Both 1890 Novak

Thanks for that. I’ll still listen, as I’m a fan of his!

**mathias broucek** · 30-06-18, 12:32

Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post

I’m a fan of his!

Me too. I still remember the quality of what he used to do with the BBC Welsh years ago. I had a couple of lessons with the Principal Trombone at the time and he went dewy eyed when I mentioned Jansons...

**Barbirollians** · 16-07-18, 15:38

I see Gergiev's Bruckner not so well received in BBCMM or Gramophone.

Stephen Johnson on symphonic releases, 16.6.18 (esp. Bruckner)

Stephen Johnson on symphonic releases, 16.6.18 (esp. Bruckner)

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