Eugen Jochum and the LSO on EMI

[HighlandDougie]

Advice/views needed. I'm currently in Hong Kong and my favourite record shop has Jochum and the LSO in the Beethoven and the Brahms symphony cycles in Tower Records Japan SACD incarnations. I know neither of them (but have earlier DG cycles). Before I indulge in some comfort buying, I thought that I would seek the expert views of forumistas on whether they are worth acquiring.

[Dave2002]

Is the Brahms with the LSO or LPO? One of the most outstanding concerts I've ever heard was in the 1970s with Eugen Jochum conducting Brahms 1 in the RFH. The recordings on EMI came out around that time. Definitely worth having I'd say. Not sure about the Beethoven, though I wouldn't expect it to be less than good.

[PJPJ]

Advice/views needed. I'm currently in Hong Kong and my favourite record shop has Jochum and the LSO in the Beethoven and the Brahms symphony cycles in Tower Records Japan SACD incarnations. I know neither of them (but have earlier DG cycles). Before I indulge in some comfort buying, I thought that I would seek the expert views of forumistas on whether they are worth acquiring.

I guess the Beethoven is a very new release as it's not on HRAudio. To tempt you further, there's also the Dresden Bruckner....

https://www.hraudio.net/showmusic.php?title=12841

[cloughie]

I own the ICON box which includes the LSO Beethoven, LPO Brahms and DSO Bruckner Symphonies, obviously not SACD, but all very good performances. If, as I do, you like Jochum’s style then don’t hesitate.

[richardfinegold]

I own the ICON box which includes the LSO Beethoven, LPO Brahms and DSO Bruckner Symphonies, obviously not SACD, but all very good performances. If, as I do, you like Jochum’s style then don’t hesitate.

I don’t own that box but I’ve got mp3s Of the Brahms used in the box on my phone, for travel listening and it’s very good.

[Bryn]

Advice/views needed. I'm currently in Hong Kong and my favourite record shop has Jochum and the LSO in the Beethoven and the Brahms symphony cycles in Tower Records Japan SACD incarnations. I know neither of them (but have earlier DG cycles). Before I indulge in some comfort buying, I thought that I would seek the expert views of forumistas on whether they are worth acquiring.

I have the Beethoven SQ LP boxed set. I have not listened to them for some decades. I do recall them being very much to my taste at the time of purchase. An obvious target for surround SACD.

[Alison]

I own the ICON box which includes the LSO Beethoven, LPO Brahms and DSO Bruckner Symphonies, obviously not SACD, but all very good performances. If, as I do, you like Jochum’s style then don’t hesitate.

Agreed.

[jayne lee wilson]

I guess these are the LPO/Jochum Brahms Symphonies from Kingsway Hall in the 1970s? Noting Ivan March's much Penguin-vaunted enthusiasm, I got them first on EMI Fortes, then on Toshiba (which are presumably the current Warners Japan single-CD incarnations), but finally gave up trying to love them.

Rob Cowan described them as "slimmed-down Furtwangler" (see Gramophone 1/97 for an excellent comparison with other cycles including Jochum's earlier mono Berlin one, which Cowan (whilst positive about some aspects of the LPO set) preferred for both sound and interpretation) in that they are grandly Romantic, big-boned affairs with a degree of tempo variable (if not nearly enough for some of us, or not feeling spontaneous enough, as all too often in his Bruckner...) but with a much leaner orchestral sound; one which for me made them somewhat uningratiating as the strings are a little bright and edgy, clear and articulate rather than blended, warm or sensuous; their ensemble sometimes less than ideal. Winds rather generalised and anonymous too.
I felt that the promising venue came across on this occasion as rather hollow and lacking atmosphere. Dynamics are good, the big moments can soar and impact well in the room, and they do at least have all the exposition repeats in 1-3 (though whether you'll be enjoying them enough to want to hear them again is debatable...).

No, they're not terrible and if you like a somewhat dated, grandly large-scale Brahmsian style you may appreciate the interpretative approach more than I do; but if you wanted to hear Brahms in this manner it may as well be actually in Berlin, Vienna (or at one or two removes, Mengelberg's Amsterdam); if with smaller or leaner orchestral tone, then - Helsingborg/Manze, SCO/Mackerras or back to Berlin with Harnoncourt, all of whom will also reward the ear with sweeter and more expressive string sections and more colourful, individualised winds.

So for me then: just not special enough; too trad but without the compensation of superior orchestral richness or refinement à la various philharmonikers, etc.

[Dave2002]

I may have to listen to the CDs again. The live performance of Brahms 1 I heard in the RFH was probably not something which one would wish to hear on CD (or at least many producers might balk at that and deny us the opportunity) as Jochum encouraged the brass to really belt it out, which coarsened the sound - but it did not matter - and perhaps even heightened the effect, by giving a sense of extra urgency. The CD may have tamed that a bit, but lost the feeling in the process, or perhaps the performers and engineers played safe in the recording venue. I'm pretty sure it was the LPO.

[visualnickmos]

......a somewhat dated, grandly large-scale Brahmsian style you may appreciate the interpretative approach

That's precisely what I do love about them! Call me old-fashioned - (hang on; isn't 'old-fashioned' ergo H(I)PP all the 'thing' now.... ? )

[kea]

It was my first Brahms cycle ever, so there is some degree of imprinting bias involved in my preference for them, but: I do think it's very fine, very similar to the Furtwängler or Walter pre-1945 recordings but in decent modern sound. The highlight symphony is No.3, which Jochum excelled at in general. The chaconne of No.4 is also a benchmark performance in my view.

I think for me the appeal of the Furt/Walter/Jochum style of conducting Brahms is that it isn't all that "grand" by comparison to e.g. Karajan or Giulini or Klemps; the tempi are generally flowing (& sometimes set speed records as in Furt's Vienna 2nd or Walter's NYPO 3rd), the orchestral sound is not blended and allows colours to stand out sharply, the expressive qualities of the music are often restrained, but there is incredible power in the dynamics and articulation. Actually the best exponent of this kind of style is probably Rudolf Kempe with the BPO on Testament.

Certainly it's not to everyone's taste; if you prefer more exciting and extrovert Brahms you're looking more for the likes of Wand or Karajan; if you prefer grander, slower, more massive Brahms then Kubelík or Levine or Eschenbach is the direction to go; if you prefer cleaner, sharper, more classical Brahms you want Mackerras or van Beinum or Harnoncourt. That said, if you already enjoy Jochum's Berlin recordings, the London recordings generally outclass them in terms of orchestral playing and quality of conducting, although are somewhat worse in terms of energy and excitement.

The Beethoven cycle is fairly good but I'm not sure I would rate it compared to his other two (Concertgebouw & Berlin—Concertgebouw being the best of the three I think). It's similarly "trad" with similar features regarding restraint & colour blending, but also generally slow, more so than e.g. Leibowitz or Cluytens. I think maybe the lack of imprinting is why I don't think so highly of it, tbh.

[richardfinegold]

Re: kea in #11
I mentioned that I have this cycle on my phone and when I travel it is usually the 3rd that I listen to as well. I think your overall assessment is spot on

[HighlandDougie]

Many thanks all for the input. I'm more tempted by the Brahms (with - apologies - the LPO) as his symphonies seem to me to lend themselves to a wide variety of approaches without losing the Brahmsian essence of the music. My i-Phone recordings are the Nelsons/Boston ones, which are very much in Kea's "not grand" style but I also find myself listening to Manze (and Celibidache and Szell and Chailly and, and ... and enjoying all of them. So, pace Jayne's caveat emptor about them I think that I'll take a punt on that box (very apt as I'm going to hear the HKPO on Saturday in Brahms's 3rd).

[mathias broucek]

I have the ICON set and the Beethoven is terrific - especially the odd numbered symphonies, assuming you like Jochum's flexible approach to tempo. The LSO doesn't **quite** have the right Beethoven sound relative to what the BPO/BRSO/RCO in his other cycles but that's setting the bar pretty high

Brahms is reasonably good but I agree with Jayne about the sound.

Does the set also include the Bach B minor Mass? That's a lovely performance, albeit with German pronunciation ("Creedo")

[Dave2002]

Does the set also include the Bach B minor Mass? That's a lovely performance, albeit with German pronunciation ("Creedo")

In some incarnations of the Bach Mass there are some really ugly technical problems - a horrendous tape edit perhaps - which let that down. I don't know whether that's the original CD mastering or a remastering - or whether those problems can be fixed.