Karajan

[Petrushka]

Do you have this, Pet:

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2010/0...ucts-ives.html

I don't but the November 1958 NYPO discs also on Pristine look interesting https://www.pristineclassical.com/co...karajan?page=1

Very few of Karajan's live Berlin recordings have emerged from the vaults of RIAS or SFB, possibly due to contractual problems, though some live Salzburg concerts recorded by ORF have been issued on Testament as have some London BPO concerts.

I live in hope that a flood (or a boxed set) of live Berlin performances will eventually see the light of day. Until then, it's a case of diligent searching around.

[Bella Kemp]

Karajan makes you sit up and think - whether you hate or love him he inspires thought and surely that is what makes music such a joy.

[Richard Barrett]

I think a lot of 'groundbreaking' composers had a struggle obtaining satisfacotry performances of their works.

You don't say!

As for Stravinsky, I did mention his Symphony in C and Concerto in D. The composer did deliver himself of a scathing word or two about HvK's Sacre, but I think a comparison of any of the latter's recordings of Stravinsky with any of Stravinsky's own will show the aesthetic gulf between them. Not that Stravinsky's word regarding his own work should be taken as gospel of course, and even less so with Bruckner whose opinions we can't know and whose own interpretations can't be consulted. I'm sure that Bruckner "would have" enjoyed Karajan's performances, and many others besides. My point is that this really isn't a criterion for judging a performance!

Murikiness in the Second Vienna Schoo recordings? Yes indeed. I was just listening to the Webern op.6 and 21 and finding the "atmos", as engineers call it, of the big empty hall somewhat oppressive. Beautiful playing though.

[Conchis]

You don't say!

As for Stravinsky, I did mention his Symphony in C and Concerto in D. The composer did deliver himself of a scathing word or two about HvK's Sacre, but I think a comparison of any of the latter's recordings of Stravinsky with any of Stravinsky's own will show the aesthetic gulf between them. Not that Stravinsky's word regarding his own work should be taken as gospel of course, and even less so with Bruckner whose opinions we can't know and whose own interpretations can't be consulted. I'm sure that Bruckner "would have" enjoyed Karajan's performances, and many others besides. My point is that this really isn't a criterion for judging a performance!

Murikiness in the Second Vienna Schoo recordings? Yes indeed. I was just listening to the Webern op.6 and 21 and finding the "atmos", as engineers call it, of the big empty hall somewhat oppressive. Beautiful playing though.

It certainly isn't; but a mischievous part of me fantasises at the idea of Beethoven praising a Karajan performance to the skies while turning his nose up at a JEG performance.

Karajan had pretensions to being a producer/Tonmeister as well as a conductor; a bit like a very good DP who thinks it'd be a cinch for him to becomea film director. The problem was, recording organisations were so keen to sign him (because he meant big sales) that they would allow him infinite leeway. EMI were particularly desperate the end of the 60s, so they may have let him get away with murder, sonically speaking. I've heard a story that one (unnamed) producer actually sought authority to banish Karajan from the mastering sessions. Michel Glotz, his producer from the mid-sixties onwards, famously described himself as 'the extension of my master's will in the control room.'

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As for Stravinsky, I did mention his Symphony in C and Concerto in D..

Not forgetting:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oedipus-Rex-Karajan-Igor-Stravinsky/dp/B00009P96K

[jayne lee wilson]

It certainly isn't; but a mischievous part of me fantasises at the idea of Beethoven praising a Karajan performance to the skies while turning his nose up at a JEG performance.

Karajan had pretensions to being a producer/Tonmeister as well as a conductor; a bit like a very good DP who thinks it'd be a cinch for him to becomea film director. The problem was, recording organisations were so keen to sign him (because he meant big sales) that they would allow him infinite leeway. EMI were particularly desperate the end of the 60s, so they may have let him get away with murder, sonically speaking. I've heard a story that one (unnamed) producer actually sought authority to banish Karajan from the mastering sessions. Michel Glotz, his producer from the mid-sixties onwards, famously described himself as 'the extension of my master's will in the control room.'

Well, the credits on the DG Audiophile-Sound-Quality 2nd Viennese School recordings of 1972-4 (as long as your system's up to the scale and space of it) are for Gunter Herrmans (balance engineer) and Hans Weber (Recording Producer) "whom Karajan injudiciously dropped from his recording team shortly afterwards" (Richard Osborne, "HvK - A Life in Music", p808).
Weber was also in at the controls for another all-time classic (which I'm ashamed to have only just recalled after a shelf-tour) the stunning 1968 Prokofiev Symphony No.5 - ah, but this (like the mid-60s Sibelius or the EMI Glotz/Gülich Bruckner 7) was back in the Jesus-Christus-Kirche; I've always felt any falling-off in perceived sound quality to be more down to the Philharmonie itself, rather than the producers who laboured to get a good sound out of it (cf. Rattle's Berlin recordings which I soon stopped buying, put off by that dry, somewhat distanced anonymity).
Remember too that the 1970-71, marvellous, much admired O. de Paris Ravel set was recorded for EMI in the Salle Wagram by - that same Glotz/Gülich team.

It wouldn't be a favourite choice for either sound or interpretation, but the Glotz/Hermanns 1975-81 DG Bruckner cycle remains a very impressive achievement; you may wish for greater spaciousness, resonance or atmosphere, but it has fine immediacy, weight and warmth and communicates Karajan's Berlin sound very well; set at a nice distance too. I can't imagine anyone failing to be at least at little impressed, dipping into it anywhere - and compelled to listen further. Those late-recorded first three Symphonies are especially fine and fiery!

"Murkiness" suggests to me something clouded, lacking transparency and/or impact; the Schoenberg/Webern/Berg trilogy have transparency and dynamics to spare, but are distinctive in their very spacious setting. This inclusion of the hall in the recording is relatively rare, even today; though BIS and CPO, among others, usually do their expert best to accommodate it, where possible.

(It is a pity posters don't review the whole thread before commenting; I highlighted those Stravinsky Symphonies/Concerto in D and Honegger recordings (among HvK's best) as early as #6...)

***
Revised favourites list…

Stravinsky Symphonies/Concerto in D
Ravel Anthology (Paris)
Franck D Minor Symphony (Paris)
Schoenberg/Berg/Webern
Honegger 2/3
Debussy Pelleas
Prokofiev 5
Bruckner 2 (1872/1876 ed. Haas/Nowak and...Karajan )

[BBMmk2]

I'm revisiting some HvK recordings, which I haven't heard for a long time now. Namely his Richard Strauss. His Richard Strauss is stunning. I will be playing that marvellous Alpine Symphony he did today.

[mikealdren]

Following this thread, I must investigate his Sibelius further. I only have his No.1 + Karelia and I've never taken to it.

[mathias broucek]

Must agree with everyone about the Honegger, 2nd VS, Roussel, Prokofiev 5 etc

Leaving aside Karajan’s important contribution it was unusual in those days to hear this type of repertoire played by a first rate and well-rehearsed orchestra

These days the gap between a first rate and second rate orchestra is much, much narrower than when Herbie stalked the earth...

Need to listen again to the Honegger and the mono Rousseau!

[Parry1912]

Can I put in mention for his 'Mathis der Maler' Symphony, his EMI 'Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, and 'Don Quixote' with Rostropovich.

Also his early 70s EMI 'Pathetique' that was the BAL choice a couple of years ago and his Wagner Preludes and Overtures for EMI. Oh, and any of his Sibelius (especially the 80s Tapiola).

[Richard Barrett]

Revised favourites list…

Stravinsky Symphonies/Concerto in D
Ravel Anthology (Paris)
Franck D Minor Symphony (Paris)
Schoenberg/Berg/Webern
Honegger 2/3
Debussy Pelleas
Prokofiev 5
Bruckner 2 (1872/1876 ed. Haas/Nowak and...Karajan

I think mine would be more like:

Honegger Symphonies 2 & 3
Mahler Lied von der Erde
Schoenberg, Berg and Webern (despite the murk)
Strauss Rosenkavalier and symphonic poems
Stravinsky Symphony in C & Concerto in D
Stravinsky Apollo & Bartók Music for strings... (although that coupling doesn't exist any more I think)
Wagner Ring des Nibelungen

Some time I think it will be necessary to revisit his Parsifal and Bruckner and Mahler symphonies, none of which I have a very clear idea of any more...

[Conchis]

I think mine would be more like:

Honegger Symphonies 2 & 3
Mahler Lied von der Erde
Schoenberg, Berg and Webern (despite the murk)
Strauss Rosenkavalier and symphonic poems
Stravinsky Symphony in C & Concerto in D
Stravinsky Apollo & Bartók Music for strings... (although that coupling doesn't exist any more I think)
Wagner Ring des Nibelungen

Some time I think it will be necessary to revisit his Parsifal and Bruckner and Mahler symphonies, none of which I have a very clear idea of any more...

It's hard for me to be objective about the Parsifal recording: it was the first one i heard and I think it was only the second digital opera recording (Karajan got there first with a Zauberflote recorded the previous year). Some reckon that the digital recording now sounds 'glassy' and 'cold' but it seems to fit Karajan's view of the work. The contemporaneous Kubelik recording is arguably superior because it has a slightly better cast (I prefer James King and Yvonne Minton as Parsifal and Kundry to Peter Hoffman and Dunja Vejkovic).

His Bruckner is very good and very influential: Karajan has cast a shadow as long as Furtwangler's over succeeding generations of Bruckner interpreters. I know people who don't generally like Karajan who somehow love him in Bruckner.

[Parry1912]

I think it was only the second digital opera recording (Karajan got there first with a Zauberflote recorded the previous year.

I’m not sure, but wasn’t Solti’s ‘Fidelio’ the first digital opera recording released?

[HighlandDougie]

Murkiness? Murkiness?

That really surprises me - which (re)-issue are you going off? Just trying the Schoenberg Op.31, then the Berg Op.6 now, from the 3-CD boxset https://www.amazon.co.uk/Schoenberg-...karajan+webern, I was struck again by the sparkling, crystalline purity of the former (unusual for the Philharmonie!) and the shocking weight, clarity and dynamic impact of the Berg. Both come across with a very vivid, atmospheric, differentiated sense of the acoustics around them too (less spacious, but with almost brutal immediacy, in the J-C-K OP.6).

This exchange about the 2VS set has prompted me to get the CDs out of the HvK giga-box and give them a spin. Yes, it's unusual to hear Webern recorded in such a spacious acoustic (the J-L-C in particular) and maybe that has given rise to the comments about "murkiness" but there is nothing murky about these recordings to my ears. Jayne's, "weight, clarity and dynamic impact", strikes me as pretty much bang on the nail.

The Philharmonie, especially with an audience in situ, can indeed sound "murky", as is evidenced by many of Simon Rattle's live EMI recordings or Abbado's Mahler 7th. But not, surely, this HvK set.

[akiralx]

One HvK release I really like in addition to many of those already mentioned is his second recording of the Symphonie Fantastique: beautifully played and totally idiomatic, plus those doom-laden bells...