Let's Have A BaL! (where there's not many recordings)

[Beef Oven!]

... a HIPP performance wd have to take into account the performing conditions known / expected by Cage when composing the work. This wd include things like the kind of performance space, the kind of fabrics worn by performers / audience (in terms of rustle / swish factor, as well as sound-absorbing properties). In 1952, in New York, what proportion of the people (for example) wd be wearing synthetic as opposed to natural materials? Shoe leather / crepe soles? What background / street noises might have expected, and which wd have been unknown (police sirens have changed a lot in 65 years... )

.

Very interesting. But do 'normal' HIPP principles apply to Cage's 4'33? Ambient sound is relative. Although sounds might be different over the years, they are still ambient sounds.

[vinteuil]

Very interesting. But do 'normal' HIPP principles apply to Cage's 4'33? Ambient sound is relative. Although sounds might be different over the years, they are still ambient sounds.

... and as so often when addressing the question of Historically Informed performances, you ineluctably come to the problem of Historically Informed hearing. We have all heard stuff (noises as well as sounds) unimaginable only 65 years ago; our 'ears' have changed - it is impossible fully to recapture the 'listening experience' of the 1952 sound-world.


.

[Beef Oven!]

... and as so often when addressing the question of Historically Informed performances, you ineluctably come to the problem of Historically Informed hearing. We have all heard stuff (noises as well as sounds) unimaginable only 65 years ago; our 'ears' have changed - it is impossible fully to recapture the 'listening experience' of the 1952 sound-world.


.

The point isn't to capture the sound world of 1952, but for audiences to hear the sounds of the immediate environment, or ambient sounds while the piece is being performed. Two performances in 1952 could sound completely different from one another, as could a performance from 2017. As I said, the usual principles of HIPP don't really apply here. It's not about capturing what Cage would have heard in 1952, but about the audience experience the sounds of the environment, wherever and whenever that might be, IMO.

[aeolium]

Busoni's Doktor Faust has I think only 3 complete CD versions, if one ignores the abbreviated concert performance of Boult/LPO: Leitner/BRSO for DG; Nagano/Lyon Opera on Erato; and Netopil/Bavarian State Opera on OEHMS. There's also a DVD/Bluray of a Zurich Opera performance recorded live under the direction of Philippe Jordan. It's a work which imo ought to be more frequently performed in the opera house - my only experience of it there was of David Pountney's fine production for ENO in the 1980s.

[Bryn]

Busoni's Doktor Faust has I think only 3 complete CD versions, if one ignores the abbreviated concert performance of Boult/LPO: Leitner/BRSO for DG; Nagano/Lyon Opera on Erato; and Netopil/Bavarian State Opera on OEHMS. There's also a DVD/Bluray of a Zurich Opera performance recorded live under the direction of Philippe Jordan. It's a work which imo ought to be more frequently performed in the opera house - my only experience of it there was of David Pountney's fine production for ENO in the 1980s.

Unfortunately Jordan opted for the Philipp Jarnach completion of the work, thus missing out on the additional material available to Antony Beaumant when he created his completion. The production is also available on YouTube:

The Beeb should have a recording of the Beaumont completion in its archive. If so, it really should be re-broadcast.

[aeolium]

Yes, the Leitner recording which pre-dated Anthony Beaumont's work on the completion uses Jarnach, and as far as I can tell from a Gramophone review of the recent Netopil recording, that uses neither Jarnach nor Beaumont. That leaves Nagano as the only recording which provides both alternative completions, and valuable for that reason. I still find Leitner the most compelling recording musically of those I have heard.

[silvestrione]

... a HIPP performance wd have to take into account the performing conditions known / expected by Cage when composing the work. This wd include things like the kind of performance space, the kind of fabrics worn by performers / audience (in terms of rustle / swish factor, as well as sound-absorbing properties). In 1952, in New York, what proportion of the people (for example) wd be wearing synthetic as opposed to natural materials? Shoe leather / crepe soles? What background / street noises might have been expected, and which wd have been unknown (police sirens have changed a lot in 65 years... )

.

A very enjoyable piece of comic-satirical virtuosity, thank you!

[MickyD]

A very enjoyable piece of comic-satirical virtuosity, thank you!

Yes, indeed, well done Vints. I was actually being humorous with my suggestion, but I seem to have opened a can of worms!

[Beef Oven!]

Yes, indeed, well done Vints. I was actually being humorous with my suggestion, but I seem to have opened a can of worms!

Not a can of worms, but an interesting exchange of ideas about a sometimes very misunderstood work.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Not a can of worms, but an interesting exchange of ideas about a sometimes very misunderstood work.

[Richard Barrett]

The point isn't to capture the sound world of 1952, but for audiences to hear the sounds of the immediate environment, or ambient sounds while the piece is being performed. Two performances in 1952 could sound completely different from one another, as could a performance from 2017. As I said, the usual principles of HIPP don't really apply here. It's not about capturing what Cage would have heard in 1952, but about the audience experience the sounds of the environment, wherever and whenever that might be, IMO.

Indeed so. But then there's the problem of choosing between the Haas and Nowak versions.

[Beef Oven!]

Indeed so. But then there's the problem of choosing between the Haas and Nowak versions.

Unsympathetic cuts in both those editions and no exposition repeat.

[kea]

... a HIPP performance wd have to take into account the performing conditions known / expected by Cage when composing the work. This wd include things like the kind of performance space, the kind of fabrics worn by performers / audience (in terms of rustle / swish factor, as well as sound-absorbing properties). In 1952, in New York, what proportion of the people (for example) wd be wearing synthetic as opposed to natural materials? Shoe leather / crepe soles? What background / street noises might have been expected, and which wd have been unknown (police sirens have changed a lot in 65 years... )

I know this is meant to be humorous, but the first performance of 4'33 was actually in here:


And halfway through, it started raining.

So >.> actually quite a lot of location-specific ambient noises that would be possible to reproduce given cooperative weather <.<

[LMcD]

A number of years ago, when Radio 3 participated in 'Children In Need', part of its fund-raising efforts centred on 4'33'', one suggestion being that the station would stop playing it once a target figure had been reached. A particularly sharp-eared listener rang in to claim that the presenter was in fact playing the record backwards - something which was reluctantly acknowledged after initial denials. (I can't remember how much they raised).

[Alison]

I woke up in the middle of the night thinking Liszt's Christus is another candidate.