Wondering why some cycles remain unfinished?

[MickyD]

[QUOTE=richardfinegold;731161]

Bruno Walter of course also shied away from Mahler 6 .

QUOTE]

As did Klemperer
The most frustrating aborted cycle for me was Hogwood/AAM Haydn

Agreed, Richard - I was gutted when I heard the axe had been wielded, especially as Hogwood had already recorded over two thirds of the cycle. All the same, I so glad we have all the earlier symphonies from him - they are often in my CD player.

[edashtav]

I don't know how it escaped my notice that Sinopoli's Mahler symphonies were completed. That means there must be more than one that I haven't heard, and I should really put that right. I always find it a bit difficult to get my head round when someone (like a conductor) who has immersed themselves thoroughly in some particular music will then say there are certain elements of it that they don't want to go near. Or, to put it another way, I find it hard to understand someone being deeply involved with Mahler's work but excluding his 8th, which surely embodies more than one of Mahler's characteristic musical/philosophical concerns in a highly intense way. And actually, somehow Boulez brings out of it many things I hadn't taken much notice of before. On the other hand I've never really understood all the fuss about Klemperer.

I see things differently, Richard Barrett. Mahler's 8th relates to the rest of his symphonic output in a similar fashion to the position of Shostakovitch's Leningrad amongst his scores: the larger palettes are filled with more coarsely grained material. Out with subtlety, in with broad brush-strokes. Pixelation rules, O.K.?

Fine works for Lennie Bernstein but not suited to Dutch tulips, petal.

[Conchis]

8 is probably considered the 'least' of Mahler's symphonies by conductors, although 7 is certainly the most mystifying.

I suppose for the first generation of conductors who knew it, it was inseparable from its rather vulgar origins as a showpiece to be accompanied by performing elephants, etc, and the unfortunate tagline 'Symphony Of A Thousand.' I'll admit, I don't find the Goethe setting in the second part all that convincing.

[cloughie]

I see things differently, Richard Barrett. Mahler's 8th relates to the rest of his symphonic output in a similar fashion to the position of Shostakovitch's Leningrad amongst his scores: the larger palettes are filled with more coarsely grained material. Out with subtlety, in with broad brush-strokes. Pixelation rules, O.K.?

Fine works for Lennie Bernstein but not suited to Dutch tulips, petal.

Karajan did not seem interested in the first three symphonies, and although he did many symphony cycles, there were other composers he either totally ignored or avoided and others where he was very selective! Other than Vaughan Williams, Elgar (If 2 is a cycle) and Rachmaninov Previn was not a keen cyclist, altough he did conduct Piano Concerto cycles for Ashkenazy and the Beethoven for Ax.

[cloughie]

8 is probably considered the 'least' of Mahler's symphonies by conductors, although 7 is certainly the most mystifying.

I suppose for the first generation of conductors who knew it, it was inseparable from its rather vulgar origins as a showpiece to be accompanied by performing elephants, etc, and the unfortunate tagline 'Symphony Of A Thousand.' I'll admit, I don't find the Goethe setting in the second part all that convincing.

A wonderfully striking start but I’m not sure I like all of it!

[Conchis]

On record , I think only Solti has succeeded with the 8th, though I know some people consider his version overrated.

I don't, because I think Solti understands that he's conducting (for the most part) second-rate music and so goes all out for spectacle, something he was very (perhaps too) good at. The 'vulgarian temperament' ('razzle-dazzle 'em!'), which Solti certainly possessed, helps a conductor no end in this work. Haitink, of course, was the ultimate anti-vulgarian, which is why he disliked it and could not succeed with it.

[richardfinegold]

I don't know how it escaped my notice that Sinopoli's Mahler symphonies were completed. That means there must be more than one that I haven't heard, and I should really put that right. I always find it a bit difficult to get my head round when someone (like a conductor) who has immersed themselves thoroughly in some particular music will then say there are certain elements of it that they don't want to go near. Or, to put it another way, I find it hard to understand someone being deeply involved with Mahler's work but excluding his 8th, which surely embodies more than one of Mahler's characteristic musical/philosophical concerns in a highly intense way. And actually, somehow Boulez brings out of it many things I hadn't taken much notice of before. On the other hand I've never really understood all the fuss about Klemperer.

Klemperer worked with Mahler, correct? And since Klemperer was a significant Conductor, his interpretations of Ms music are of interest. However, I agree with you that K doesn’t strike me as a particularly sensitive Mahlerian

[Richard Barrett]

Mahler's 8th relates to the rest of his symphonic output in a similar fashion to the position of Shostakovitch's Leningrad amongst his scores: the larger palettes are filled with more coarsely grained material. Out with subtlety, in with broad brush-strokes.

But I don't agree that Mahler's 8th is all about broad brush strokes (let alone vulgarity) like the Leningrad - sure it has its big powerful moments, but even in its first minutes you hear a solo violin weaving through the texture, and the beginning of the second movement is an amazing piece of subtle orchestral/choral landscape. So it contains the whole range between massive deluges of sound on the one hand and chamber music on the other. This is an aspect Boulez was certainly very awake to in his interpretation, whether he liked the piece or not.

RF, of course it's a fact that Klemperer worked with Mahler directly but that doesn't necessarily mean he had any inner affinity with the music, in the way that Bruno Walter obviously did, don't you think?

[pastoralguy]

This is an extremely personal opinion, (and I write as someone for whom the 7th Symphony is his favourite by a long way!), but I've been lucky enough to play all the Mahler symphonies, some at least half a dozen times, and I have to say that No.8 has always left me stone cold. I have tried listening to various performances both live and on cd but it just doesn't do it for me.

I think the real talent in that work is in bringing all the elements together!

[Bryn]

But I don't agree that Mahler's 8th is all about broad brush strokes (let alone vulgarity) like the Leningrad - sure it has its big powerful moments, but even in its first minutes you hear a solo violin weaving through the texture, and the beginning of the second movement is an amazing piece of subtle orchestral/choral landscape. So it contains the whole range between massive deluges of sound on the one hand and chamber music on the other. This is an aspect Boulez was certainly very awake to in his interpretation, whether he liked the piece or not.

RF, of course it's a fact that Klemperer worked with Mahler directly but that doesn't necessarily mean he had any inner affinity with the music, in the way that Bruno Walter obviously did, don't you think?

I have not spun it for a while, so will have to get the DG disc off the shelf to check what he got the cymbal player to do in that, at the start of Part 2, but when he did it at the proms (available on CDs, paired with Berlioz's Nuits d'été, he had the cymbal thumbed into resonance, rather than struck. Very effective, it was, too.

[vinteuil]

I have not spun it for a while, so will have to get the DG disc off the shelf to check what he got the cymbal player to do in that, at the start of Part 2, but when he did it at the proms (available on CDs, paired with Berlioz's Nuits d'été, he had the cymbal thumbed into resonance, rather than struck. Very effective, it was, too.

... this one?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphony-8-Nuits-DEte-Mahler/dp/B000003X1I

.

[HighlandDougie]

I write as someone for whom the 7th Symphony is his favourite by a long way!

Have you heard the new Iván Fischer (highly recommended by Mahlerei, among others)? It is really quite special.

P.S. Totally agree on the 8th, despite the advocacy of Solti, Chailly and Inbal, among others.

[pastoralguy]

Have you heard the new Iván Fischer (highly recommended by Mahlerei, among others)? It is really quite special.

P.S. Totally agree on the 8th, despite the advocacy of Solti, Chailly and Inbal, among others.

Not yet, Dougie but it's on my wish list. It was Disc of the Month in Gramophone. My favourite has always been the Tennstedt with the LPO although it took me a long time to realise that there were two versions. There are a few cracked notes which simply add to the excitement.

[Edgy 2]

I live in hope for a George Lloyd cycle with a first class conductor and orchestra...

If only

[Barbirollians]

But I don't agree that Mahler's 8th is all about broad brush strokes (let alone vulgarity) like the Leningrad - sure it has its big powerful moments, but even in its first minutes you hear a solo violin weaving through the texture, and the beginning of the second movement is an amazing piece of subtle orchestral/choral landscape. So it contains the whole range between massive deluges of sound on the one hand and chamber music on the other. This is an aspect Boulez was certainly very awake to in his interpretation, whether he liked the piece or not.

RF, of course it's a fact that Klemperer worked with Mahler directly but that doesn't necessarily mean he had any inner affinity with the music, in the way that Bruno Walter obviously did, don't you think?

Klemperer seemed to have affinity with some Mahler -the Das Lied von Der Erde and Mahler 9 recordings strike me as very fine . His EMI Mahler 2 and 4 however do little for me and the 7th is so slow .

The 1951 Holland Festival Mahler 2 is better but frankly all of it sounds relatively ordinary except for Kathleen Ferrier's extraordinarily moving Urlicht and the Finale.