Horenstein in Mahler

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  • Barbirollians
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 11707

    Horenstein in Mahler

    Horenstein's CFP Mahler 4 I bought and loved at university but I knew nothing else of his Mahler until a few years ago when I got his Unicorn Mahler 1 when it appeared as a freebie in the dying days of Classic CD magazine and really enjoyed it . Recently , I obtained a secondhand copy of the BBCLegends Eighth a performance that is so marvellous that one can understand now the extraordinary impact it apparently made .

    On then to the famed Mahler 3 which also seems to me to live entirely up to its reputation with so much contrast and " rightness" about it with the terrific Norma Proctor thrown in for good measure .

    Last night I listened to the live Stockholm Mahler 6 - the recording sounds just a little distant and there are occasional bits of slight distortion and crackles which seem to be something to do with the original recording . It strikes me as another great performance though - a steady if not quite Barbirolli tread , a far from overblown but quite the scariest recording of the Scherzo I have heard and just terrifically paced Andante and Finale though I think Barbirolli still has the edge in intensity for me here .

    What I have found so rewarding in Horenstein's recordings in that although they are so different from other favourites of mine in particular Walter and Barbirolli they seem to convey all the emotional charge of the works without underlining whilst by no means seeming cool as to my ears Haitink , Karajan and even the early Abbado recordings have to me .

    The only Mahler record of his I have found a comparative disappointment was the much praised Das Lied von Der Erde on BBC Legends - although it is good I found it a bit over praised the worthy soloists being no match for Ferrier/Patzak for example .

    What is your favourite Horenstein Mahler ? And if you don't like it why ?
  • ferneyhoughgeliebte
    Gone fishin'
    • Sep 2011
    • 30163

    #2
    <ahem>

    I disagree with Barbi's opinion of the Das Lied recording - it is the only recording that (nearly) rivals the incandescence of the Ferrier/Patzak/VPO/Walter.

    Otherwise I share his very high opinion of Horenstein's conducting of Mahler - it is a great, great shame that there isn't a complete cycle recorded in the Studio; but perhaps the Companies' lack of foresight has resulted in the availability of the Live recordings, which have such Life in them.
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

    Comment

    • Hornspieler
      Late Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 1847

      #3
      I would go for Mahler's 6th - partly, I suppose that I was playing in it with the BSO.

      Strangely, JH always addressed me by name whereas he normally addressed others by instrument.

      " Ah well, back into the chamber of Horenstein!" was a typical remark heard by many at the end of a tea break.

      But Horenstein was, to my mind, on a par with Bruno Walter and I'm sure that our fellow forumite, Tony, would agree.

      HS

      Comment

      • LeMartinPecheur
        Full Member
        • Apr 2007
        • 4717

        #4
        I have the 3rd, 4th and the 6th. Like Barbs it was a uni LP purchase, my first 4th. Bought it again on Cd not so long ago too. The 6th I've got on less well with. I bought it after a very favourable review in Gramophone but didn't like it much on first acquaintance. The sound quality may well have been a factor (rather subfusc) but I was then very much under the influence of the HMV Barbirolli recording and found H's first mov't really too fast. Have got used to the 'proper' tempo in many other performances since, and really ought to give Horenstein another whirl. But I still have to confess that I still love the Barbirolli - "Wrong but romantic" might be the verdict for me.

        The 3rd is amazing, but I do wish the strings were in the recording picture a lot more. I think of it as 'the Harmoniemusik M3'!

        Should no doubt get the H 8th: perhaps I will. And perhaps the 1st?
        I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

        Comment

        • Bryn
          Banned
          • Mar 2007
          • 24688

          #5
          Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
          I have the 3rd, 4th and the 6th. Like Barbs it was a uni LP purchase, my first 4th. Bought it again on Cd not so long ago too. The 6th I've got on less well with. I bought it after a very favourable review in Gramophone but didn't like it much on first acquaintance. The sound quality may well have been a factor (rather subfusc) but I was then very much under the influence of the HMV Barbirolli recording and found H's first mov't really too fast. Have got used to the 'proper' tempo in many other performances since, and really ought to give Horenstein another whirl. But I still have to confess that I still love the Barbirolli - "Wrong but romantic" might be the verdict for me.

          The 3rd is amazing, but I do wish the strings were in the recording picture a lot more. I think of it as 'the Harmoniemusik M3'!

          Should no doubt get the H 8th: perhaps I will. And perhaps the 1st?
          IIRC the 1st (licensed from Unicorn) appeared on a CFM cover disc. Worth looking out for in charity shops.

          [Just checked my copy. It's a double CD in the Classic FM Hall of Fame Collection. The second disc has Tamás Vásáry playing Beethoven piano sonatas (Op. 8, 14, 23 and 26). The number on the Mahler disc itself is CFMAGCD204a, the Beethoven disc being CFMAGCD204b.]
          Last edited by Bryn; 25-09-17, 07:40. Reason: Update

          Comment

          • Richard Tarleton

            #6
            Originally posted by Hornspieler View Post
            " Ah well, back into the chamber of Horenstein!" was a typical remark heard by many at the end of a tea break.

            But Horenstein was, to my mind, on a par with Bruno Walter and I'm sure that our fellow forumite, Tony, would agree.
            HS


            Good to hear that estimate, HS. I was lucky enough to see him about 3 times, the first time indeed conducting the Bournemouth SO, but after your time - it would have been around February 1971, in Exeter (Rhenish, Also Sprach). The other two occasions, in the RFH, were conducting Bruckner, though I used to have the LP of Mahler 3.

            Comment

            • Petrushka
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 12260

              #7
              That stunning live 1959 Mahler 8 needs to be in any decent collection. It still stands up today as one of the best so any waverers should not hesitate. Likewise the 3rd, a classic if ever there was one.

              There are two Mahler 6's from Horenstein: one from the Stockholm Philharmonic (1966) and the other on a BBC Legends disc (1969). Neither is in the top flight regarding either sound or performance but both are still worth hearing. I've got the Das Lied CD but haven't heard it in ages, likewise the 1st and the 9th (BBC Legends again).

              A 1969 Mahler 7, once more on BBC Legends, is hobbled by very poor sound, making for a tough listen so not recommended, alas.

              For some strange reason, I've never had the 4th; wonder if it's too late to rectify the omission?

              JLW will be along any minute to point out that there is a live BPO Mahler 5 available on Pristine Classical and I'm sorely tempted by that one.

              A great pity never recorded (or performed?) the Resurrection. Had he done so I reckon it would have been up there with that marvellous 8th.
              Last edited by Petrushka; 25-09-17, 08:32. Reason: sticking 'a' key!
              "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

              Comment

              • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                Gone fishin'
                • Sep 2011
                • 30163

                #8
                Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
                A 1969 Mahler 7, once more on BBC Legends, is hobbled by very poor sound, making for a tough listen so not recommended, alas.
                Yes - the Legends remastering made the sound worse than the version I have (currently only available at silly prices):



                ... the sound "difficult" here, but still "listenable"; and the performance is one of the very best that the symphony has ever received (my favourite recording before the BPO/Gielen Live was released on TESTAMENT).
                [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                Comment

                • mikealdren
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 1201

                  #9
                  I'm another who bought the 4th as a student, I also bought his No.3 but they are on LP and I haven't listened to them in years, must give them a whirl.

                  Mike

                  Comment

                  • Barbirollians
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 11707

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
                    That stunning live 1959 Mahler 8 needs to be in any decent collection. It still stands up today as one of the best so any waverers should not hesitate. Likewise the 3rd, a classic if ever there was one.

                    There are two Mahler 6's from Horenstein: one from the Stockholm Philharmonic (1966) and the other on a BBC Legends disc (1969). Neither is in the top flight regarding either sound or performance but both are still worth hearing. I've got the Das Lied CD but haven't heard it in ages, likewise the 1st and the 9th (BBC Legends again).

                    A 1969 Mahler 7, once more on BBC Legends, is hobbled by very poor sound, making for a tough listen so not recommended, alas.

                    For some strange reason, I've never had the 4th; wonder if it's too late to rectify the omission?

                    JLW will be along any minute to point out that there is a live BPO Mahler 5 available on Pristine Classical and I'm sorely tempted by that one.

                    A great pity never recorded (or performed?) the Resurrection. Had he done so I reckon it would have been up there with that marvellous 8th.
                    The CFP Mahler 4 was released on CD so there might be second hand copies knocking around .

                    Comment

                    • Hornspieler
                      Late Member
                      • Sep 2012
                      • 1847

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Richard Tarleton View Post


                      Good to hear that estimate, HS. I was lucky enough to see him about 3 times, the first time indeed conducting the Bournemouth SO, but after your time - it would have been around February 1971, in Exeter (Rhenish, Also Sprach). The other two occasions, in the RFH, were conducting Bruckner, though I used to have the LP of Mahler 3.
                      Actually, I was playing in that performance.
                      ,
                      Having left Belfast*, I was freelancing, but playing quite often with CBSO, RPO, LPO* and (quite often), the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. The Principal Horn, Tim Brown was the son of my School Music Master, Anthony F Brown,
                      who started me and many other musicians on the road to success.

                      Tim's sister Iona, Violin and ConductorASMF
                      Brother Ian, Piano, Nash Ensemble
                      Malcolm Latchem, Dartington String 4tet and ASMF
                      David Butt, Principal Flute, BBC SO
                      Keith Deacon, Clarinet, BBC Northern Orch
                      Rodney Senior, Trumpet,Bournmouth Symphony Orchestra
                      Maurice Handford, Horn and later Conductor Hallé
                      Bob Young, Horn, ENO
                      ... and many others

                      I had known Tim and Iona (Twinkle) since they were young children.

                      Tim often asked for me to join his section if the need arose and that session with Horenstein was one of those occasions.

                      When I gave up playing, it was Tim who asked to buy my Alexander Horn (which he had actually borrowed on one or two occasions. He had just been appointed Principal Horn of the BBC Symphony Orchestra and told me that he would be playing it on his first Broadcast - so I would be able to hear how it sounded.

                      I was at somebody's farewell party that night, but at 7.30, I excused myself and slipped out to the car to listen to the broadcast.

                      On my return, my wife Pamela button-holed me.

                      "Did you hear the broacast? What were they playing?"

                      Me: "Brahms second symphony"

                      "So how did it go?"

                      "I'm glad that it has finally fallen into the hands of somebody who knows how to use it"

                      HS

                      * See my thread "Hornspieler and the 3 Bs"
                      Last edited by Hornspieler; 25-09-17, 09:26.

                      Comment

                      • gurnemanz
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 7391

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mikealdren View Post
                        I'm another who bought the 4th as a student, I also bought his No.3 but they are on LP and I haven't listened to them in years, must give them a whirl.

                        Mike
                        I also got the cfp Fourth. Just checked the garage. Still there, likewise unplayed for ages, (proudly sponsored on the sleeve by Embassy cigarettes!). I seem to have only one CD of Horenstein in Mahler: I quite recently acquired the legendary Eighth with the LSO recorded live in the Albert Hall on March 20th 1959 (in early stereo) on this BBC Legends box. A remarkable achievement. (Useful review and background info here).

                        (Incidentally, BBC Legends box Mark 2 is out this week).

                        Comment

                        • Richard Tarleton

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Hornspieler View Post
                          Actually, I was playing in that performance.
                          OT but I'm delighted to hear that, HS! I went to every BSO performance in Exeter that season, so wonder if you were in any others? I'll PM you!

                          Comment

                          • richardfinegold
                            Full Member
                            • Sep 2012
                            • 7671

                            #14
                            Horenstein's First has long been my favorite in a crowded field. I live has somewhat darkly inflected 4 and I haven't played the Stoch
                            Kholm 6 in a while. For years the 7th was the only version that I knew. The Vox 9 is a powerful account.
                            I had informed Forumites of the 5th on Pristine, and I believe that it is on you tube.

                            Comment

                            • Pulcinella
                              Host
                              • Feb 2014
                              • 10962

                              #15
                              Far too long ago now to say with certainty, but I think that the only time I saw both Horenstein and Janet Baker live was in a concert in 1970 (probably) as part of the Nottingham Festival, and I suspect that it was Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen that we heard. The first item in the concert was Boyce Symphony 1, and I have no idea what was after the interval!
                              I was living away from home doing an apprenticeship (pre-University sandwich course year) and went with my landlady, who drove us from Derby!
                              Mahler/Janet Baker/Horenstein was certainly a winning combination for us that night.
                              If anyone else was there and kept the programme or remembers it, I'd love to know if my memory is intact, and what else we heard.

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