A perfect record

[Barbirollians]

I was wondering this morning whilst listening to the Philharmonia/Karajan Pastoral - a recording which pretty much to me meets the epithet of a perfect record what it must be like for a conductor to re-record repertoire when their first attempt has been so well received.

I have all four of Karajan's studio Pastorals and none of the other three come close though I know some in here have a soft spot for the 1980s rendition.

Sometimes no doubt contractual requirements make them have to re record a work - for example I doubt any conductor could say to a record company I will re record the Beethoven symphonies but not the Pastoral or may be an interest in HIPP but sometimes they re-record a work and one just wonders why and fail to achieve anything like as impressive results - do the shadow of their own good reviews hang over them ?

Then again sometimes they just keep getting better Abbado's Lucerne Resurrection Symphony recording comes to mind .

[pastoralguy]

Well, I suppose that advances in recording technology have a part to play in any re-recording and I'm sure DG wanted a Karajan 'Pastoral' on their books but I think Karajan was guilty of re-recording just a bit much. Of course the lure of the new CD technology was an impulse that couldn't be ignored but I do wish Karajan had spent his precious time recording an expanded repertoire including DSCH 8, Elgar or the Brahms Serenades.

[cloughie]

I was wondering this morning whilst listening to the Philharmonia/Karajan Pastoral - a recording which pretty much to me meets the epithet of a perfect record what it must be like for a conductor to re-record repertoire when their first attempt has been so well received.

I have all four of Karajan's studio Pastorals and none of the other three come close though I know some in here have a soft spot for the 1980s rendition.

Sometimes no doubt contractual requirements make them have to re record a work - for example I doubt any conductor could say to a record company I will re record the Beethoven symphonies but not the Pastoral or may be an interest in HIPP but sometimes they re-record a work and one just wonders why and fail to achieve anything like as impressive results - do the shadow of their own good reviews hang over them ?

Then again sometimes they just keep getting better Abbado's Lucerne Resurrection Symphony recording comes to mind .

Interesting that whilst Karajan was busy recording with the Philharmonia in the 50s, one of the best ever Pastorals was recorded by the BPO and Cluytens.

[richardfinegold]

Well, I suppose that advances in recording technology have a part to play in any re-recording and I'm sure DG wanted a Karajan 'Pastoral' on their books but I think Karajan was guilty of re-recording just a bit much. Of course the lure of the new CD technology was an impulse that couldn't be ignored but I do wish Karajan had spent his precious time recording an expanded repertoire including DSCH 8, Elgar or the Brahms Serenades.

I think Karajan got to decide what he recorded, and re recorded. Why he made further Beethoven cycles after the 1963 set can best be answered by him, were he here to commune with us. From what I heard of his later cycles there was more of an emphasis upon the sound, or virtuosity of the playing, and less upon the spirit of the music, but no doubt he would have objected to that characterization

[Conchis]

Richard Osborne's Karajan biography (which I would highly recommend, being the best biography of a musician I've ever read) recounts how DG was able to tempt Karajan back into its fold on two separate occasions - in the 70s, then the 80s - by offering him a 'new' Beethoven cycle. I think his 'ground-breaking' first stereo set initially got him to leap over the wall from EMI in the early 60s. Karajan WANTED to re-record Beethoven: he did the same for the Brahms symphonies in the same timeframe.

[visualnickmos]

I think Karajan got to decide what he recorded, and re recorded. Why he made further Beethoven cycles after the 1963 set can best be answered by him, were he here to commune with us. From what I heard of his later cycles there was more of an emphasis upon the sound, or virtuosity of the playing, and less upon the spirit of the music, but no doubt he would have objected to that characterization

I would suggest that his sense of commerce was legendary - he knew when he was on to a good thing! And being a megalomaniac probably helped....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I would suggest that his sense of commerce was legendary - he knew when he was on to a good thing! And being a megalomaniac probably helped....

... along with the point that the performances of Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Ninth symphonies are better in 1977 than they were in 1963, and the Sixth and Eighth in the digital set are better still.

[visualnickmos]

... along with the point that the performances of Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Ninth symphonies are better in 1977 than they were in 1963, and the Sixth and Eighth in the digital set are better still.

Quite possibly; I've listened to the 1963 cycle, and both that followed '77, and the 1980s. If forced, I would say (in huge generalisation!) that my personal order of preference is - 70s, 80s, 60s

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If forced, I would say (in huge generalisation!) that my personal order of preference is - 70s, 80s, 60s

Yes - the '70s set is probably my favourite of the DG lot, too (I still haven't heard the '50s set yet) - with the massive exception of a comparatively timid Eroica. And I think the '80s Pastoral is one of the finest recordings of the work that I've heard. The '60s Eroica is, I think, the most impressive of Herbie's recordings of that work.

[cloughie]

Yes - the '70s set is probably my favourite of the DG lot, too (I still haven't heard the '50s set yet) - with the massive exception of a comparatively timid Eroica. And I think the '80s Pastoral is one of the finest recordings of the work that I've heard. The '60s Eroica is, I think, the most impressive of Herbie's recordings of that work.

I agree you ferney about the '60s Eroica, indeed I'd put in the top few ever!

[Petrushka]

Karajan was fond of telling aspiring conductors that they should record the Beethoven symphonies once every decade since their first cycle will be terrible and they will have immediately changed their interpretation, or words to this effect. As an artist, not a megalomaniac, a conductor, any conductor not just Karajan, would be striving after a perfection that would be just over the horizon. I'm not surprised that so many of the big-name conductors have tried two or three times over the decades and the lure of better sound and, latterly, HIPP has proved too much for some. I, for one, am very glad that Karajan gave us four cycles and, one of these days, I hope we get a completely live one. Currently have 2, 4, 6, 7 & 9 in live BPO recordings from various sources.

Karajan's view of the Pastoral remained remarkably consistent over the years and ironically his much criticised sleek first movement is pretty much how everyone does it nowadays!

[visualnickmos]

Yes - the '70s set is probably my favourite of the DG lot, too (I still haven't heard the '50s set yet) - with the massive exception of a comparatively timid Eroica. And I think the '80s Pastoral is one of the finest recordings of the work that I've heard. The '60s Eroica is, I think, the most impressive of Herbie's recordings of that work.

Yes - that '60s Eroica is very special - I must listen again to the 80s Pastoral... In fact a bit of an HvK Beethoven symphonies immersion is in the air!
I suppose the 50s set is mono...?

[Petrushka]

I suppose the 50s set is mono...?

If you get the Warner Re-mastered edition, the 8th is in stereo while the 9th has both stereo and mono versions in which latter form it was first issued. The mono sound is so good throughout the set it makes very little difference anyway.

[Barbirollians]

I probably used the wrong example as I did not intend this only to be about Karajan but I suppose due to his longevity especially at DG and his selling power he is the most obvious example .

Abbado in Mahler is another . Here it seems to me that he was very much justified in re-recording the symphonies he did . His recordings seemed to get better and better rather a shame that some of the last recordings only ended up on DVD .

[Conchis]

I probably used the wrong example as I did not intend this only to be about Karajan but I suppose due to his longevity especially at DG and his selling power he is the most obvious example .

Abbado in Mahler is another . Here it seems to me that he was very much justified in re-recording the symphonies he did . His recordings seemed to get better and better rather a shame that some of the last recordings only ended up on DVD .

Abbado really should have recorded his 80s Mahler 9 with the LSO, rather than the posher VPO. By common consent (including his own), he did superior Mahler work in London than he did in Vienna.