Telemann Box Sets

[MickyD]

Much as I enjoyed the discussion between Andrew McGregor and Hannah French yesterday about all those new Telemann box sets, I do think that they were somewhat condescending and dismissive about those Harnoncourt recordings of the Darmstadt Overtures. To my mind, they remain amongst the very best recordings of Telemann ever made.

[doversoul1]

My guess is that it is very much a generation thing. Unlike you and a lot of us who were actually there when it was all happening, to Hannah French*, Harnoncourt’s recording must be historical in more than one sense. To her generation, HIPP has its own history now. Makes you think, doesn’t it?

*https://about.me/hannahcfrench

Andrew McGregor probably thought it wasn’t a good time to argue.

[richardfinegold]

My guess is that it is very much a generation thing. Unlike you and a lot of us who were actually there when it was all happening, to Hannah French*, Harnoncourt’s recording must be historical in more than one sense. To her generation, HIPP has its own history now. Makes you think, doesn’t it?

*https://about.me/hannahcfrench

Andrew McGregor probably thought it wasn’t a good time to argue.

I came to HIPP recordings in the 90s as it was 20 years or so on. I don't like most of those N.H. recordings-scrappy strings, squawking oboes, blatty horns, etc. I applaud their pioneering spirit but Period performance has progressed enormously in the 2 succeeding generation.

[doversoul1]

I came to HIPP recordings in the 90s as it was 20 years or so on. I don't like most of those N.H. recordings-scrappy strings, squawking oboes, blatty horns, etc. I applaud their pioneering spirit but Period performance has progressed enormously in the 2 succeeding generation.

That was exactly what I meant. To those who heard it when it first came out, Harnoncourt’s performance means far more than how his performance sounds (when you hear it today). But of course, this does not mean everybody should admire or enjoy his or other pioneers’ recordings.

[jayne lee wilson]

Much as I enjoyed the discussion between Andrew McGregor and Hannah French yesterday about all those new Telemann box sets, I do think that they were somewhat condescending and dismissive about those Harnoncourt recordings of the Darmstadt Overtures. To my mind, they remain amongst the very best recordings of Telemann ever made.

Yes, gosh - you bet! I love these very much, precisely for the sheer sound (textured, gutty but never sharp or aggressive, immediate yet 3D with plenty of space around them), as well as the musical values. As Telemann has obsessed me as much as Zelenka sometimes, I do have a fair number of other, later Telemann issues too from AAMB and Freiburg, Zefiro and Pratum Interregnum, so I'm not without comparatives. But it's NH & the CWM I go back to most. (Les Irresoluts is playing now - lovely!)

Scrappy or squawking aren't words the that come to my mind listening to the Das Alte Werk original-issue sets of the Darmstadt Overtures(**) or indeed the Table Music and the single CD of concertos. I do worry about the sound quality of large reissue sets on ensembles like these, having been disappointed in such things too often - sending them back. I often find earlier CDs sound better in direct comparison (and spend ages hunting them down..!). That Harnoncourt Alte Werk Concertos CD is a peach.
Ear-of-the-beholder as ever, (and system-of too) but as a soundquality obsessive, I've never been put off those precious late 70s/80s NH Telemann sets. Quite the reverse, even under close comparative scrutiny.
(I think so highly of those CWM Darmstadt Overtures I've often used them as HiFi test discs.)

(**) Worth recalling that the last 2 of those are 1966 recordings (with Bruggen on recorder), and sound rather sweetly Romantic! Did the review go into much detail?

[MickyD]

Not as much detail about the 30 CD box as I would have liked, Jayne. Glad you are with me over the Harnoncourt recordings - I agree, they are impeccably played and yet manage to sound so earthy at the same time.

Happily I have already amassed a considerable Telemann collection of my own over the years and won't need to acquire these sets. But of course there is always room for more single releases! I'm tempted by the extensive CPO collection of the Kapitansmusik.

[BBMmk2]

I have the Rheinhart Goebel's Musica Antqiqua Telemann box set, which so full of good recordings. Looks like I will have to investigate Harnoncourt's ast array of recordings that he made with his Concentus Musicus.

[MickyD]

I have the Rheinhart Goebel's Musica Antqiqua Telemann box set, which so full of good recordings. Looks like I will have to investigate Harnoncourt's ast array of recordings that he made with his Concentus Musicus.

Indeed you must...the Darmstadt Overtures and the complete Tafelmusik are essential to have alongside the equally impressive Goebel recordings.

[Bryn]

Indeed you must...the Darmstadt Overtures and the complete Tafelmusik are essential to have alongside the equally impressive Goebel recordings.

You have managed to convince me. Duly ordered from amazon.it. It will probably be sent from Dunfermline as usual.

[MickyD]

Bravo, Bryn. The playing is so different yet so exciting in both sets that they must be had!

[BBMmk2]

Bravo, Bryn. The playing is so different yet so exciting in both sets that they must be had!

By Harnoncourt?

[Richard Barrett]

I applaud their pioneering spirit but Period performance has progressed enormously in the 2 succeeding generation.

In some ways though this "progress" has been in the direction of making sounds more palatable to listeners who expect the same kind of polish you'd get from a modern symphony orchestra, so that HIPP in the early 21st century has, for better or worse, quite possibly less to do with how the music originally sounded than for example Harnoncourt's recordings of the 1960s and 1970s. I like the inhomogeneity of the string sound. It seems to me more indicative of the kind of sound 17th or 18th century players would make than the smoothed-out contemporary HIPP version. The musicologist Richard Taruskin has written interestingly on this subject (although personally I don't always agree with his tastes or conclusions), for example in his book Text and Act from 1995. It often seems to me that many of the most successful HIPP performers these days are purveying HIPP for people who don't really like HIPP.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If I may blunder into this conversation, knowing hardly anything about the subject, it does not take a genius to work out that if a current ensemble want to generate an authentic HIPP performance, rather than fast forwarding 200 years to present day sounds, they might fast rewind to a century or two before Telemann to the sounds that the musicians of Telemann's era might have been aware of.

Eh?

[jayne lee wilson]

CMW/Harnoncourt AFAIK only recorded 4 sets of Telemann. Tafelmusik, Darmstadt Overtures, Concertos and The Day of Judgment. All very compelling and not such a vast commitment.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=sr_pg_1?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3ATelemann+Harnoncourt&keywords=Telemann+Harnoncourt&ie=UTF8&qid=1503363646

Most of them are in the 2017 Warner 13-CD box (with incomplete Tafelmusik), but I don't know how they sound on it.

[MickyD]

In some ways though this "progress" has been in the direction of making sounds more palatable to listeners who expect the same kind of polish you'd get from a modern symphony orchestra, so that HIPP in the early 21st century has, for better or worse, quite possibly less to do with how the music originally sounded than for example Harnoncourt's recordings of the 1960s and 1970s. I like the inhomogeneity of the string sound. It seems to me more indicative of the kind of sound 17th or 18th century players would make than the smoothed-out contemporary HIPP version. The musicologist Richard Taruskin has written interestingly on this subject (although personally I don't always agree with his tastes or conclusions), for example in his book Text and Act from 1995. It often seems to me that many of the most successful HIPP performers these days are purveying HIPP for people who don't really like HIPP.

I very much agree. The rougher-sounding earlier recordings by the AAM are an example of this - there's just such an exciting feel about them, warts and all. I'm thinking of the Arne and J C Bach overtures and the Mozart symphony cycle.